Battlezone - Suggestions

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Nigel
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Battlezone - Suggestions

Post by Nigel »

Firstly, it's a great fighting island, but I have some suggestions, which I have run by another regular player, and this is what we thing need's done:

Higher health for buildings, ESPECIALLY the town center, it's too easy to blow up a town, once that's happened, not much point carrying on, we want longer lasting bases, kudos are too easy to get, and usualy get left to a greedy member of the team when others are trying to build up the base.

Helicopters are a waste of time, a whole building for it, pointless, give it some Anti air capability, or at least some rockets, and It will be worth building for.

Rockets fired by ground vehicles need to do better/some damage to buildings.

we would greatly appreciate some changes as above, it's a good world, but with tweaking could be much much better :)


other than that, unless Mit adds a time extension feature (both teams must agree etc) that is all :wink:
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Post by Nigel »

ah yes, and MorLi suggests the ability for the town to sell steel, would help a bit 8)
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Post by Vagrant »

Well, I believe battlezone was intended to be easy for newer people, the fact that it is listed on quickplay and seems to be the first world most people find supports this theory. I won't argue that some additions could help things, but I feel that the vast majority of them should be to make it harder for more seasoned players to grief on newer people. Setting up teams where everyone can't group against a single person, or a group of newer people would be a start. While having more anit-aircraft options would help newer players defend themselves, it would also make it impossible for them to launch a successful attack. Having rockets also damage buildings would have a similar effect since it would only give a further edge to more seasoned players. Instead I think it would make more sense to allow armor upgrading and building of some sort of automated defense with a limited stock of ammo.

Also, I was under the impression that towns themselves were indestructible, if not they should be.

Hopefully once there are other combat worlds open to people the griefing that happens will be less likely. Nothing more annoying than someone sitting outside your base in a tank to kill you the moment you step out and try to access a buildings. Personally I am glad that I almost done with needing the planet. Enjoy helping people learn, but don't appreciate someone coming in and trying to show off how "uber 1337" they are. Having fun trying to kill eachother is one thing, but once they start getting a bombing run ready, either you have to be the jerk and pin them down, or sit and watch everything go to hell.
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Post by VDZ »

If there will be something to make teams fair, please add an option for a player to disallow more people to join his team.
I like 3v1 battles where I'm the 1.
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Post by zaroba »

but then who would get control of that option?
i mean, somebody would have to be made the captain of the team or everybody might end up fighting over wether or not others can enter it.
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Post by VDZ »

Make it only function when there's only one person on the team, then.
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Post by Morli »

Known issues in Battlezone which cause problems:

Aircraft:
If flying in a bomber, or Biplane when world resets, it bugs, and you cannot choose another vehicle unless client exits, and re-logs.

if in a low fps system, it is possible to make your bomber/biplane immune to missile attacks. Not divulging how, in a public forum for obvious reasons, but it is doable.

Helicopters: see above notes.

Nasty bug with bombs - fly low to a base, and drop just before the safe zone, will blow up people in 'safe' territory. Intermittent, but does happen.

Stalling over a building - tilting the plane's nose up, and applying excessive throttle manages an 'ouroborus stall' - a stall without end. I am not 100% sure - my experience piloting planes in RL is dire - once total, but I believe that if you try to do this, your lift would disappear, and you would start to plummet, no matter how much thrust you give your propellers. Instead, you can hover like a helicopter, or even gain altitude. Since so much of the rest of plane physics is accurate, this seems a real shame - and I have seen experienced players use this, to bomb buildings to fragments in a single run.

(tried it myself, to see just what would happen, and used my own base for an extended test - don't laugh :) )

Team Switching

Enough with aircraft, moving on to the real evils.
Five minutes before the end of a game, there are evenly spaced teams: 1 on alpha, 1 on beta, 3 on delta, 2 on gamma. Gamma is in the lead by far, having co-ordinated two-pronged attacks (bomber and tank in team) as opposed to everybody for themselves of the other teams.

60 seconds before game ends, there are 7 on gamma. Team switching is a really good idea, as it allows for mutanies throughout the game, however, there is a severe problem, which I will explain after the next point.

Second point: Have observed, in the middle of the night, when few people are on, one player playing - often me, practicing, thou not always - on a team other than beta, and bombing beta, to practice their plane skills / gain easy kudos. Then, suddenly, someone logs in, joins your team, and immediately logs out. This can happen a dozen times with different players throughout the cause of a game. Why?

The answer to both points is <i>everyone</i> on a team at the end of a game session gains kudos whether they did anything or not. This means a lot of people 'playing' by doiung nothing, but simply joining a team, doing nothing for it, and creaming the glory. I suggest two separate solutions:

A. Only include in the kudos, players who spent 10 minutes or longer logged in, and part of that team.

B. Award a points system, to the players, internally to the team, I suggest something like this:

Building a building: 1 pt.
Building 2nd building: 5pts
killing a person in vehicle 1: 1pt
killing any other ground vehicle: 3pts
killing any flying vehicle: 5pts
getting blown up: 1 pt

The system would work, such as only people who earnt 5 points or more would get kudos with the team. This would guarantee they were participating:

Building a building is possible with starting steel reserves. Building a second building would require getting steel from a factory or town - they are obviously playing.

Killing a person on foot (vehicle 1) is easy to do, and is what spawn-killing does. It helps the team, so is reqwarded, but by the smallest amount possible - to discourage spawn-killing.

Being killed by a spawn-killer also generates points - if you are around long enough to get killed 5 times, you were trying to contribute.

killing ground vehicles is of help to the team, the person means to participate. Usually results in getting blown up one or more times yourself.

blowing up a bombing aircraft is of immense benefit to the team, deserves the possibility of reward for even taking out one.

Thas enough for this post. I tend ta get carried away ^.^
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Post by Vagrant »

Personally I don't see what the problem with the scoring is... There was obviously a reason why Mit added a building to beta that gets restored every game and provides no benefit to that team. One can only enter Battlezone when it's completely empty to understand why a person should be able to get kudos without having to sit there waiting for someone else to come along that knows how to build buildings. Adjusting the scoring where people get points for building will only lead to people joining the game, making 2 gas stations, then leaving (or waiting 10 mins then leaving). Making people get points for killing is just silly as they already get money from it, and adding points would only further encourage base camping since the one camping would still gain more points than those getting killed through your system. Killing flying vehicles isn't hard at all once you know how to aim up, there are people who are very good at this. As for awarding points for getting blown up... you never explained this, but would hope that you are refering to an act other than crashing a plane, driving/running into water, or typing ".explodeme" since awarding points for any of those things would just be even more senseless than encouraging people to camp outside a base to kill everyone who walked out of safety.

Mostly though I feel that given the current state of things, time would be better spent making the game more newbie friendly. Adding all these things to Battlezone would only make it harder for new people to get anywhere. Afterall, Battlezone is currently the first world anyone joins, and the last thing anyone wants is to try and learn how to play while being camped at their base because they're an easy target.

If anything, the only addition needed should be to make the helicopter not auto-rotate when standing still, and have right/left control it's turn rather than banking right/left. This would make it more effective against both land and air targets once a person has learned how to aim. Changing plane physics isn't really needed since anyone can tell you that a plane hovering over a building, or even moving slow is an easy target, and is very ineffective against actual players.

Really, what's it matter with giving kudos when all they are is on the right team? Compared to other worlds, it actually takes longer to get credits this way that on other worlds. How so? In order to get 1 credit you would have to be on the right team 10 times, If it's one game after another, that's 15 hours, 13.9 hours if you manage to get the first one right at the end. Compared to a world like Gyruss or Planitia where you can get 1 credit right away. Even if you don't count starting money, you can still get 1 credit worth of money on Gyruss from existing there 6 hours with 4 jobs, or 8 hours with 3 jobs. And you don't even have to be actually playing there for very long if you know what you're doing. Besides Battlezone is in the starting system so it is intended to be easy for people to get credits.

The issue here is that what's really needed is a world similar to Battlezone, but harder and located in a non-starter system. From what I understand Reina Roja will be such a world, but I could be wrong.
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Post by Nigel »

start cash needs to be lowered by about 50s, there isnt much point in fighting except for the hell of it and for distracting and getting people out of the way.

the game would be more balanced at 50s, there will be more emphasis and importance in fighting than bombing. 8)
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Post by theseer »

dude... there isn't enough players on battlezone for 50s
and whenever there is they're all newbs that need someone to teach them

rockets don't need to do damage
by keeping damage to bombers and biplanes it makes it harder to defend against...
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Post by Nigel »

There are much less noobs than you think, I have had many full on battles with over 6 players, the cash is too high, at least lower it by 20, lol :shock:
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Post by Vagrant »

What's with you and battlezone anyway? It seems like every other day for the past week or so you've had one complaint or another about it. If you don't like it, don't play it.

The thing with money is that it's supposed to allow people to do whatever without having to be concerned about how much they have. You forget, there are some people who just suck at killing and flying, so they go through a good 20-30 vehicles a game, more if they're pinned down at base. Speaking of bases, those cost 20s or 50s( in the case of alpha), sure, a person like you might not need a base, but should a person need an industructable source of steel, it does help out. The point is that you get money for killing people, that should be more than enough hint that it was never intended to have people run out.

What next? Suggesting that people only be allowed to carry 5 bombs at a time? Start with only 25 steel? Just accept it that the only challenge on the world is supposed to come from a worthy opponent. Dreaming up penalties and such will only make the world even less popular.
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Post by Nigel »

You are blowing my suggestions completly out of proportion.

what right do you have to tell me that I can't be involved in universal? this is a community, its what they do. I remember a time when owners happily changed settings on a world, and for much much bigger requests than the ones i'm giving for battlezone.


Here is the reason why vagrant, re, the money. I can build a huge town on my own, chug ot cars and weapons, not once have I run out, EVER.

If there was less money, fighting would have more purpose as a way to get money, at the moment, everyone can just build up a massive base with no fighting skills at all, just get planes and bomb other towns for kudos. are those kudos fair then, say, and rightly given to a person who couldn't drive a trolly? No, it's not balanced, fighting isnt essential, just a requierment. All im saying is, would an econ island be fun if everyone started with 10000s? maybe at first, but that's what this is like. I make a valid point.

I have my right to make suggestions, if it means increasing the difficulty, and fun of an island, why not? this isnt a noob zone.

Only because you don't agree, it doesn't mean you have to moan at me for making some worthy suggestions, I only asked that the money be lowered slightly, if you fight enough, even with 60s you'll never drop below 10s., im not suggesting getting rid of it completly, but to expand the base, you would need to fight a little, hence, more emphasis on fighting, and MorLi agree's with me, when/if she replys to this.


A quick example: Imagine playing red alert 2 with 30,000 resources, sure it makes it fun to build and get a good advantage, but where's the skill? the master a game you shouldn't have to have everything available to you, you should be able to earn some of it. my above example would give complete noobs a fighting chance, and while that might seem ok, because noobs want to win too, it's terrible, why should I play against someoene who has a good chance just because he can afford one? wheres the skill there?


Next time you want something changed on an island, i'll rememebr how useless you've been at this time, and I'll argue your points all the way just because I can, that seem fair?

The suggestions are there to make the world more enjoyable for everyone, they are not selfish reasons. Do you have a problem with me trying to help?

And just to add one to your list of lovely comments, a base only costs 50s you say? so the money to spare is what? I'm not saying LIMMIT anything, and if you'd listen you'd understand that.

also, not to put this into my favour too much, but I have been playing Universal on and off for some time, and have a good knack for knowing a balanced world from an unbalanced one, if the world is meant to be easy, then that's fine, I was only making a suggestion

When you have too much of something, it makes it less fun and challenging to have, im sure other fair gamers will agree with that. I've made my point
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Post by Nigel »

VDZ wrote:If there will be something to make teams fair, please add an option for a player to disallow more people to join his team.
I like 3v1 battles where I'm the 1.

I know that you mean, when noobs or players tend to think large numbers are more fun. the ability to VOTE OUT a member via the town would be a fine thing :)

only if a team is so large tho, might need to add a few rules to it, but the system seems ok to me. not just being able to join other teams, but being able to be kicked out of them. the other day, I was making considerable progress at destroying DogMeats town (sorry :) ) but was hampered by one player on the team who thought "fighting your own team is fun" apart from that he was a good player, but sadly I lost out on a few kudos for his actions.

:?
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Post by theseer »

mit has removed the ammo factory from beta
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Post by Vagrant »

Yes, 50s or 20s for a base, another 4-6s invested into steel to make your buildings, 9-12s to make vehicle factory fully stocked after removing 1 of each. 16s to get an aircraft factory stocked... If they're on team Alpha that leaves 56s, ok, I see your point, but don't see how having factors into limiting what people can make. Since there is only the cost of steel in building anything, a person could make just as many buildings with only 5-10s. They could even afford to make a plane and bomb. Lowering money wouldn't solve anything as far as bombing towns go. It would however severely limit the mistakes that a new player could make. It would also lead people to resort to camping bases to constantly kill new people even more than now, and since money is so rare, they would have an excuse for doing so. Sure, when people of reasonable skill are playing against eachother this won't be an issue, but you should know better than anyone how rarely that happens. In the 40+ games I have played in, more than half of them were pretty much empty for the entire 90 mins, of the remainder, most of those were either cases of me having to teach people how to play, or me coming into a game where one person was getting pinned down in their base by another newbie. Only about 3 of those games actually had people of reasonable skill playing. And I'm even counting the game where my buildings were bugged and several people thought it funny to bomb the hell out of me, and pin me down. Point is that if you limit the money, people will resort to those kinds of tactics because they can justify it.

Comparing it to econ worlds doesn't make sinse since econ worlds are long term, while battlezone is short term, money made now won't be there later. I don't need to explain this to you, you've been around long enough to know that the two are very different. Your comparison to a RTS is closer, but you're considdering the money as an advantage, last I checked, everyone started out in battlezone with the same amount of money, hence no advantage. In that light, there is actually more skill needed since all that money would allow a much larger number of things to defend against, meaning that someone can maintain a losing offensive for longer. If everyone is only able to make 1 vehicle, then all you need to do is get lucky and kill them before they kill you, or hope that they lag out, and either crash or drive into water. Don't see how that would bring skill into things aside from learning how to throw grenades and running more than normal.

It's ok to suggest changes, but it just seems like you're on some personal mission with battlezone, and that most of your suggestions are ill-founded. You should also not be so surprised when someone disagrees with what you suggest. Afterall, that's how all the good ideas get seperated from all the bad ideas, the more perspectives that developers can get on a subjest, the more thought they'll actually give the idea since they'll have a better idea how those things will affect the game. Ideas which don't recieve such treatment rarely get added, and when they do, it usually causes other problems.

This is nothing personal, the only reason why it would seem that way is because we both post often, and we both believe in what we say. Hell, as I post this I can't help but laugh about how similar this is to a few similar cases where someone makes it personal, and all there is is constant bickering that just annoys the hell out of everyone. So let's just not do that, ok? I speak honestly, and say things how they look to me. Yes, I made a sarcastic comment, but only because it was clearly never going to be suggested. I see now how I might have mispoken, accept my apoligy.
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Post by theseer »

well think this... the game isn't that stable yet.. and some people have computers that are bound to crash

when u relog in battlezone u lose ur base. so u have to buy it again... not everyone usese metal refineries.

also... some people invest more then u wrote... namely me.

the current money amount should stay
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Post by Mit »

ive lowered the starting cash to 120s for now.
I dont yet expect cash to be a significant factor in battlezone jus yet, but will keep tweakin the settings to create a nice balance over the comin weeks n months..
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Post by Nigel »

I do understand your point vagrant, but you're missing out the ability factor in

"we all get the same ammount of cash so it's fair"

there is very little challenge in the cash system, and that was the point I was trying to make.
If there was another way to make money...

say, an oil refinary that could produce money steadily, a sheckle a min maybe?, like on RA2 for example, then money could be lowered slightly, because anybody could make a steady income, and because the game is only temp as you say, this should be fine.

It wasn't my intention to make the game easier for some and hard for others with my suggestion, but I thought an added dimmension of tactic and battling would have made it more enjoyable for everyone. Just want it closer to an RTS, thasall

And yeah, apology accepted, but you'll have to get used to my way of thinking, I like to make suggestions, lol

Perhaps the building limit would also need raising slighly then, perhaps by 1 or 2, because we wouldn't want to limit building stuff either...just a suggestion, mind you.

:wink:
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Post by Morli »

Um, interjecting here. "Have the same cash so its fair" That's completely off the point. We could give everyone 5000s, and 36,000 steel to start - its the same so its fair?

The point is, the learning curve was, and still is, a bit off. The main point seems to be - am I gonna get shot down for saying this one *hurries to bombshelter* - let's use battlezone to make kudos as fast as possible, bugger the fun - winning is mother, winning is father, anyone who gets in the way of my kudos must be destroyed.

Um, surely the point is to have fun? No?

Suppose not...
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