I have made some requests for humanoid models with the standard walking, running, and idle anims, but also some fire anims. First, I'd like to summarize how that worked out.
Fooli graciously animated kicking animations to the caveman and cavewoman models (og and ig) with some apropriate weapon scripts, an invisible projectile is sent out the distance of the cavepersons kick range. The effect is that you can kick sheep in a believable way. It looks great.
FHKO made an awesome knight human model for me, which was very nice of him to do, especially since it was a project that he felt may have been out of his range. The model has running, walking, standing, stabbing, and sheild anims. I got the sheild and stabbing anims working, but there are significant glitches to both animations, which cause the model to dissapear, or parts of the world to dissapear and turn white, or a gray square will appear under the model.
I have 2 questions:
1) can these problems be fixed in a model such as this?
2) Is there anyone out there in TU land capable of making animated humanoid models?
Here is the list of models that i need starting with most important and going to least important:
A)1 humanoid knight, suit of armor, carrying a sword(or axe or spiked club (doesnt matter)
and a sheild
1walking, 1running, 1standing, 1attack(either stab, slash, swing..etc) and 1 defending animation w sheild
B)same as above, but just chainmail, no plate armor
C) 1 ninja carrying a small sword.
1walking,1 running, standing=crouching(not animated),
1 jumping (summersault) anim lasting approx 1 seconds, 1 sword attack animation
D) human with toga, carrying dagger
1 walking, 1 running, 1 standing, 1 dagger attack anim, 1 dodging animation
E) human with archers suit, carrying bow & quiver on back, and sheild on arm.
1 walking, 1 running, 1 standing, 1 bow attack anim, 1 sheild defence anim
F) human with medeval simple clothes. carrying a short spear.
walking, running, 1 standing, 1 spear stabbing anim, 1 throwing anim (for my spinning axe projectile)
G) 1 horse mounted knight with Lance(or sword, or bow doesnt matter)
walking, running, standing, 1 attack anim, 1 jumping anim lasting approx 1 seconds
I know its alot of requests, but its all in the name of TU!!!
thanks to anyone who can help.
Animated Humanoids Request
Re: Animated Humanoids Request
Sounds to me like he's got his face numbers mixed up on different animation frames - it can happen during the export process if transforms aren't reset; and it can happen in the source model too if vertices merge or the polys do anything other than move as whole polys when the model animates.flametard wrote:there are significant glitches to both animations, which cause the model to dissapear, or parts of the world to dissapear and turn white, or a gray square will appear under the model.
Could be tricky to fix... If you want to send me the problematic .atm i'll have a look and confirm, but if I'm right it's a job for the modeller I'm afraid - could mean remodelling, reanimating, or just re-exporting but all of that could be quite painful.
As for the rest... mm, where's that moon... now, where's that stick :]
f
Any half-serious modelling program will do: free options like Blender, Gmax; very expensive options like 3ds Max, Maya... there are loads. All you need is the ability to create and edit a 3d mesh (even the most rudimentary programs have that) and, for animation, the ability to create skeletons and skin a mesh to them, so you can start creating funky looking animated characters. Most of the freeware stuff doesn't have that (Blender is an exception, I believe, but the interface was designed by feckwits).
All of that aside, the main thing I'd say here is that our graphics engine just doesn't encourage you to do what you're trying to do. In a normal, "proper" game you would have skeletal animation. So you would have a number of mesh types (for example "human male", "human female") and a number of animated skeletons to fit those meshes ("man walking", "woman jumping", etc). You still have to skin the mesh to the skeleton but a lot of the hard work is done in code. The practical result of which is that once you have a "man walking" animated skeleton, you can apply it to any suitable mesh, be it a knight, a peasant, a DJ, whatever.
The way we do it is significantly previous-gen :) Which means creating all of the animations you need, using vertex animation, for every mesh you need. Frankly I wouldn't bother unless it's very simple (one mesh, maybe two)*.
Finally.. the other advantage of skeletal animation is that you handle weapons and other carried items using the skeleton, too. So your knight might have a sword, or a mace, or an axe... makes no difference. All you need to do is model the weapon, not the whole walk/stand/fight etc animations for each model using each weapon.
/rant over. Mit knows about all of this, of course. It's just that "skeletal animation" is one of his "only if I'm being paid" items on a very long to-do list :)
f
*just because it'll take an absolute age, likely not be very good when you're done, and won't be reusable anywhere else. But knock yerself out, y'know :)
All of that aside, the main thing I'd say here is that our graphics engine just doesn't encourage you to do what you're trying to do. In a normal, "proper" game you would have skeletal animation. So you would have a number of mesh types (for example "human male", "human female") and a number of animated skeletons to fit those meshes ("man walking", "woman jumping", etc). You still have to skin the mesh to the skeleton but a lot of the hard work is done in code. The practical result of which is that once you have a "man walking" animated skeleton, you can apply it to any suitable mesh, be it a knight, a peasant, a DJ, whatever.
The way we do it is significantly previous-gen :) Which means creating all of the animations you need, using vertex animation, for every mesh you need. Frankly I wouldn't bother unless it's very simple (one mesh, maybe two)*.
Finally.. the other advantage of skeletal animation is that you handle weapons and other carried items using the skeleton, too. So your knight might have a sword, or a mace, or an axe... makes no difference. All you need to do is model the weapon, not the whole walk/stand/fight etc animations for each model using each weapon.
/rant over. Mit knows about all of this, of course. It's just that "skeletal animation" is one of his "only if I'm being paid" items on a very long to-do list :)
f
*just because it'll take an absolute age, likely not be very good when you're done, and won't be reusable anywhere else. But knock yerself out, y'know :)
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flametard
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actually it does, the kicking, and fhko's knight proves that it could be fun for gameplay. I've tested it a couple of times with a couple of people, and it could add a hack and slash kinda element to the game.Fooli wrote: I'd say here is that our graphics engine just doesn't encourage you to do what you're trying to do.
Exactly how many individual animations can you set to a model? Can you set a jumping animation currently with TU? can i make an attack animation for standing, walking and running, or just one of the above? Can i make a flight model that has a running animation when on the ground, and a different animation when flying?
I dont care if i have to do vertex stuff and animate each one individually. I'll figure it out. I'll DL blender, and some tuts
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flametard
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ok i have blender downloaded.
you were saying something like TU doesnt use bones or something, only vertex animation or something .
maybe there's a tutorial designed for the kind of animation i need to make, what kinda of key phrases do i enter into th search engine to find it?. if there isnt maybe theres someone in TU willing to make a tutorial for me of how to make a simple animated humanoid that will work in TU. I saw lots of tutorials, apparently blender has all sorts of applications. I want to focus on just the things that will make cool animated models for TU. I promise if someone helps me through this ill make models for TU!!
you were saying something like TU doesnt use bones or something, only vertex animation or something .
maybe there's a tutorial designed for the kind of animation i need to make, what kinda of key phrases do i enter into th search engine to find it?. if there isnt maybe theres someone in TU willing to make a tutorial for me of how to make a simple animated humanoid that will work in TU. I saw lots of tutorials, apparently blender has all sorts of applications. I want to focus on just the things that will make cool animated models for TU. I promise if someone helps me through this ill make models for TU!!
Well ok, it's only your time :)
re. kicking: same thing as weapons. The thing with a skeletal system is that it makes it easier to create animations where, for example, the code knows the bone for the foot has connected with the bone for the enemy's body, and so do stuff.
How many animations can you set to a model? Observe (this is in the MC help file):
Animations triggered by players
Moving:
Weapons fire:
These animations will be used if they are present and the appropriate weapon (model) is fired:
If the appropriate animation from the list above is not present, (e.g. the player is 'walking' but there is no Generic fire walking) then the Generic weapon fire animation is use instead.
Animations triggered by Wildlife
re. kicking: same thing as weapons. The thing with a skeletal system is that it makes it easier to create animations where, for example, the code knows the bone for the foot has connected with the bone for the enemy's body, and so do stuff.
How many animations can you set to a model? Observe (this is in the MC help file):
Animations triggered by players
Moving:
- Standing (when player does nothing)
Standing bored (when player has been standing motionless for a while)
Walk (when player moves without holding shift)
Run (when player moves and hold shift)
Walk damaged (when player is walking and has over 50% damage)
Run damaged (when player is running and has over 50% damage)
Jetpack (animation is looped while player uses the jetpack)
Die (animation triggered when player dies)
Move start (if this animation is present and a player is standing, when they start moving, this is played immediately then blended into the walk or run animation
Move stop (if this animation is present and a player is walking or running, when they stop moving, this is played immediately and then blended into the standing animation)
Gesture 1 (if a model is configured by a world owner to be "humanoid" (vehicle type 0) and has no weapons, then when a player presses tab this animation will be triggered.
Gesture 2 (if a model is configured by a world owner to be "humanoid" (vehicle type 0) and has no weapons, then when a player presses shift+tab this animation will be triggered.
Gesture 3 (if this animation is present the game will occasionally trigger it as an alternative to Standing bored)
Jump (if a model is configured by a world owner to jump, this animation will be triggered when a player presses tab)
Weapons fire:
These animations will be used if they are present and the appropriate weapon (model) is fired:
- Fire weapon model 1
Fire weapon model 2
Fire weapon model 3
Fire weapon model 4
Fire weapon model 5
Fire weapon model 6
Fire weapon model 7
Fire weapon model 8
Fire machinegun
Fire plasma
- Generic weapon fire
Generic fire walking
Generic fire running
If the appropriate animation from the list above is not present, (e.g. the player is 'walking' but there is no Generic fire walking) then the Generic weapon fire animation is use instead.
Animations triggered by Wildlife
- Walk
Run
Eat
Standing
Standing bored
Move start
Yes, but (reading between your lines) you still need a modelling program that's capable of dealing with bones, if you want to animate character models.flametard wrote:ok i have blender downloaded.
you were saying something like TU doesnt use bones or something, only vertex animation or something
Let's say we were talking about Quake or somesuch program. Well, normally you'd use 3ds Max or maybe Blender, and just build a model with a boned skeleton you could animate in the modelling software. And then you press export, and (more or less) hey presto, you have a game-ready model - the skeleton and mesh you created are basically used by the game.
We don't do the export "everything" bit, because while games like Quake can interpret the skeletal structure you model with in Max or Blender or whatever, we can't. So instead, we have to export the mesh for every frame of animation for a model (each "keyframe") and then recombine those frames in the model converter, in order to recreate the animation. Rather than the code interpreting movement in the skeleton, and deforming the mesh for us, we just export many meshes and tell the code which order they go in. It's called vertex animation because the code simply translates each vertex from its position on frame 1 to its position on frame 2, rather than knowing that "arm bone 1" moves n degrees in y, x and z.
Hope that makes sense. Also hope I don't seem too negative about the whole process. As I know you have an artsy background I'm sure you could get your head around it. It's just that I know how painful it is, and it took me quite a while :] But then, I am a monkey.
If you can get hold of a copy of Max I can help you most. Next most is Gmax. And Blender, well... I've tried many times to understand its bizarre interface. And I don't!
f
Final comment (for today). To understand what's involved in setting up a mesh and its skeleton, there is an outrageous number of websites with tutorials and suchlike. However, I would only recommend one to give you a comprehensive illustration of the procedures involved in modelling an animated character. Visit and bow down before the might of one "poop in your mouth" - Ben Mathis - who has a whole load of video tutorials on his website, here:
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/tutorial.htm
If you've never used Max or you've no experience of modelling, it will seem daunting. Nonetheless, he explains the whole process from start to finish...conceptually it is invaluable, even if you decide or have to use different tools.
f
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/tutorial.htm
If you've never used Max or you've no experience of modelling, it will seem daunting. Nonetheless, he explains the whole process from start to finish...conceptually it is invaluable, even if you decide or have to use different tools.
f
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flametard
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ok, so i think youre saying this:
I can create a model using bones, and then, move the model's arms or legs bit by bit and take keyframes, like pictures? or do i have to recreate the arms in order to move them 1 inch for the anim? thanks for all your help. blender is free, so once i figure out what key things need to be accomplished for a TU model then ill tackle the interface. I'm watching smoe of the tutorials, and some look very simple. this one guy made an animated fish in like 5 minutes.
I can create a model using bones, and then, move the model's arms or legs bit by bit and take keyframes, like pictures? or do i have to recreate the arms in order to move them 1 inch for the anim? thanks for all your help. blender is free, so once i figure out what key things need to be accomplished for a TU model then ill tackle the interface. I'm watching smoe of the tutorials, and some look very simple. this one guy made an animated fish in like 5 minutes.
Yeh, you're kinda there already.
In your modelling program, you make a character. So let's say you make a simple model of a man.
You're happy with the mesh. It looks like a man and he has a smiling face. I dunno. Anyway, it's done.
Next is the process of uvmapping - so you can texture the man. That, in itself, can be a world of pain :) Mapping blocks and buildings is easy: mapping people is not. Ben can help there, too.
Once you have a man with a uvmap you're happy with (which means, you've already tried to texture it and are at least happy with a concept texture - you've proved your mapping works). Then:
You build a skeleton for the mesh using bones. A footbone, a legbone, a pelvis etc etc. How you do this depends on the program you're using. But in the end you end up with something that looks like a simplified human skeleton (cos you're making a man, not a triceratops) and the bones fit the mesh. Typically for very simple low-poly animation you'd want:
- two feet bones
- two shin bones
- two thigh bones
- a pelvis
- maybe 3 vertebrae (or 2 or 4 perhaps, it depends on the model)
- two shoulder bones
- two top arm bones (I forget what they're called, the ones you have biceps on)
- two lower arm bones
- two hand bones
- a neck bone
- a "head bone"
Next is a process called skinning. This is where you tell your modelling program which vertices on the mesh are controlled by which bones. I've no idea how to do this in Blender. In Max, each bone has an envelope that encompasses different vertices on the mesh. You can tweak the effect each bone has on each vertex, and basically that's the process of skinning.
The skill here is in making sure each bone affects only the parts of the mesh you would expect it to (so moving the head moves all of the head bits, but doesn't touch the shoulders - for example). The skill here is also in making sure the bendy bits of the skeleton look vaguely realistic, so when you bend the arm at the elbow the arm doesn't distort in an unrealistic fashion. Ben is helpful here: the way you model these key bits of the character will affect how well you can move the joints. So often you get to the skinning stage, and then have to abandon the skinning you've done and go back and remodel (and probably re-map) the mesh. Fun times :)
Once you've done skinning, you can actually start animating the mesh. This is another world of... not so much pain, more of learning and trial and error. Just cos you made a skinned mesh doesn't mean you know how to animate stuff, I know :) But yeh, like you say: Max, for example, has an animation mode where it watches what you do with stuff on keyframe one and records it. Then you move to keyframe 2 and change stuff, and it works out how to move from frame 1 to frame 2. That is the process of animation, in a nutshell.
But let's assume you create, say, a nice 4-frame walk cycle. Well done you. How do we get it into the game?
1 - you move the animation to frame one (say, the beginning of the walk cycle). You select and export the mesh on that frame. In .x or .3ds format for the MC to be able to read it, and I'd recommend .x
2 - you then move the animation to frame two (a bit into the walk cycle) and repeat the export process.
3, 4 - repeat for each frame of animation.
Next, we boot up the Model Converter. We follow the very well written help file, and create a new animation using the build animation menu. I wrote the help file :) Basically, you add each frame of animation you exported. So the MC now has a list of .x files... then you assign times to each .x file (each "keyframe) and that determines, in-game, how long the code will take to blend between each mesh you exported - each part of the walk cycle, for example. You can preview all of this in the MC.
When you're happy with the look of the thing, you save as an .atm and there you go: an animated model.
Simple, no? :p
f
In your modelling program, you make a character. So let's say you make a simple model of a man.
You're happy with the mesh. It looks like a man and he has a smiling face. I dunno. Anyway, it's done.
Next is the process of uvmapping - so you can texture the man. That, in itself, can be a world of pain :) Mapping blocks and buildings is easy: mapping people is not. Ben can help there, too.
Once you have a man with a uvmap you're happy with (which means, you've already tried to texture it and are at least happy with a concept texture - you've proved your mapping works). Then:
You build a skeleton for the mesh using bones. A footbone, a legbone, a pelvis etc etc. How you do this depends on the program you're using. But in the end you end up with something that looks like a simplified human skeleton (cos you're making a man, not a triceratops) and the bones fit the mesh. Typically for very simple low-poly animation you'd want:
- two feet bones
- two shin bones
- two thigh bones
- a pelvis
- maybe 3 vertebrae (or 2 or 4 perhaps, it depends on the model)
- two shoulder bones
- two top arm bones (I forget what they're called, the ones you have biceps on)
- two lower arm bones
- two hand bones
- a neck bone
- a "head bone"
Next is a process called skinning. This is where you tell your modelling program which vertices on the mesh are controlled by which bones. I've no idea how to do this in Blender. In Max, each bone has an envelope that encompasses different vertices on the mesh. You can tweak the effect each bone has on each vertex, and basically that's the process of skinning.
The skill here is in making sure each bone affects only the parts of the mesh you would expect it to (so moving the head moves all of the head bits, but doesn't touch the shoulders - for example). The skill here is also in making sure the bendy bits of the skeleton look vaguely realistic, so when you bend the arm at the elbow the arm doesn't distort in an unrealistic fashion. Ben is helpful here: the way you model these key bits of the character will affect how well you can move the joints. So often you get to the skinning stage, and then have to abandon the skinning you've done and go back and remodel (and probably re-map) the mesh. Fun times :)
Once you've done skinning, you can actually start animating the mesh. This is another world of... not so much pain, more of learning and trial and error. Just cos you made a skinned mesh doesn't mean you know how to animate stuff, I know :) But yeh, like you say: Max, for example, has an animation mode where it watches what you do with stuff on keyframe one and records it. Then you move to keyframe 2 and change stuff, and it works out how to move from frame 1 to frame 2. That is the process of animation, in a nutshell.
But let's assume you create, say, a nice 4-frame walk cycle. Well done you. How do we get it into the game?
1 - you move the animation to frame one (say, the beginning of the walk cycle). You select and export the mesh on that frame. In .x or .3ds format for the MC to be able to read it, and I'd recommend .x
2 - you then move the animation to frame two (a bit into the walk cycle) and repeat the export process.
3, 4 - repeat for each frame of animation.
Next, we boot up the Model Converter. We follow the very well written help file, and create a new animation using the build animation menu. I wrote the help file :) Basically, you add each frame of animation you exported. So the MC now has a list of .x files... then you assign times to each .x file (each "keyframe) and that determines, in-game, how long the code will take to blend between each mesh you exported - each part of the walk cycle, for example. You can preview all of this in the MC.
When you're happy with the look of the thing, you save as an .atm and there you go: an animated model.
Simple, no? :p
f
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flametard
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you'd need a video of the problem.
Basically, in the very middle of the first (outside) swing of his blocking animation, the model dissapears for a split second and seems to be replaced with a grey square on the ground, not a tile, a grey square which moves as the model moves.
and when he stabs, if youre standing idle it looks very nice,
but if youre walking, and trying to stab then sometimes a large area of the ground turns white and the model dissapears. its a very different looking glitch than the other 1. I think pressing the movement keys while he is mid animation does this.
Basically, in the very middle of the first (outside) swing of his blocking animation, the model dissapears for a split second and seems to be replaced with a grey square on the ground, not a tile, a grey square which moves as the model moves.
and when he stabs, if youre standing idle it looks very nice,
but if youre walking, and trying to stab then sometimes a large area of the ground turns white and the model dissapears. its a very different looking glitch than the other 1. I think pressing the movement keys while he is mid animation does this.