An idea for worlds set within the galaxy system
An idea for worlds set within the galaxy system
This is a fairly big article, but it really isn't one that you can san through and read the last few lines of, snce every sentence is important and I will not digress much(plus, the important bits are somewhere in the middle)...so presevere...
Some of the complaints with the economy worlds in a-tractor, is that
1) After a while, theres nothing to do
2) New players find it hard to start up as all the stuff is already done
3)
There have been some attempts by economy islands to rectify this by:
1) Resetting the island every few months
2) Stopping the island whenever the owner feels like it and then starting it up again later on, which is a different version of the one above
3) Adding other stuff to the island, such as weapons, for the uber rich to play around with
After thinking about the way other online games face this problem (as most owners seem very/absolutely/extremely reluctant to just let the island just carry on, rather like Zoric II), I have come up with the following measure:
When a player reaches a certain networth/wealth, that player immediately loses all possessions, buildings and sheckles. In effect, he dies, with one important difference: all the money he has is converted into galactic credits. As this happens whenever the player's wealth reaches a set amount, this means that what happens is that the player gets rewarded, or "heroed out" with galactic credits and can start all over again in that world if he wants to.
This, I think, is a rather neat way of utilising the galaxy system, especially since, the whole idea of the galaxy system is to introduce a sence of progression into the game. Of course, this idea will need to be hardwired into the code of the game, but I think the effort will be worth the benefits
Also, the above idea can be further enhanced with the system of ranks for worlds, where you cannot progress to a world unless you have "heroed out" of a world one rank below it. In this way, people will have something to aim for, and only at the last tier will there be a constant state of people leaving and entering, as at the other ones it will consist of people passing through. Obviously, you will not be able to make many galactic credits from the low level world, but at the high level worlds, will be able to make a lot more.
Here are some names for the tierd worlds (which I've burrowed from some sci-fi sources):
Low Tier: Feral World, Farming World, Death World(this last one also implies a deadly wildlife and enviroment as well as a low popualtion)
Medium Tier: Civilised world, Industrialised World
High Tier: Factory World, Technological World
Of course, theres no reason why an Farming World cannot be high tier, as they can have an active economy,but they provide nice themes and a reason why these planets are low tier(plus its just a name). Also, the worlds earmarked for this "cycling mode" will have to have an infinite credit rating, as I would imagine that the infinite playablility aspect will be slightly damaged if there was a finite amount of credits you can draw from it!
When I don't use three dots in a row you know I've done this in rough first...
Some of the complaints with the economy worlds in a-tractor, is that
1) After a while, theres nothing to do
2) New players find it hard to start up as all the stuff is already done
3)
There have been some attempts by economy islands to rectify this by:
1) Resetting the island every few months
2) Stopping the island whenever the owner feels like it and then starting it up again later on, which is a different version of the one above
3) Adding other stuff to the island, such as weapons, for the uber rich to play around with
After thinking about the way other online games face this problem (as most owners seem very/absolutely/extremely reluctant to just let the island just carry on, rather like Zoric II), I have come up with the following measure:
When a player reaches a certain networth/wealth, that player immediately loses all possessions, buildings and sheckles. In effect, he dies, with one important difference: all the money he has is converted into galactic credits. As this happens whenever the player's wealth reaches a set amount, this means that what happens is that the player gets rewarded, or "heroed out" with galactic credits and can start all over again in that world if he wants to.
This, I think, is a rather neat way of utilising the galaxy system, especially since, the whole idea of the galaxy system is to introduce a sence of progression into the game. Of course, this idea will need to be hardwired into the code of the game, but I think the effort will be worth the benefits
Also, the above idea can be further enhanced with the system of ranks for worlds, where you cannot progress to a world unless you have "heroed out" of a world one rank below it. In this way, people will have something to aim for, and only at the last tier will there be a constant state of people leaving and entering, as at the other ones it will consist of people passing through. Obviously, you will not be able to make many galactic credits from the low level world, but at the high level worlds, will be able to make a lot more.
Here are some names for the tierd worlds (which I've burrowed from some sci-fi sources):
Low Tier: Feral World, Farming World, Death World(this last one also implies a deadly wildlife and enviroment as well as a low popualtion)
Medium Tier: Civilised world, Industrialised World
High Tier: Factory World, Technological World
Of course, theres no reason why an Farming World cannot be high tier, as they can have an active economy,but they provide nice themes and a reason why these planets are low tier(plus its just a name). Also, the worlds earmarked for this "cycling mode" will have to have an infinite credit rating, as I would imagine that the infinite playablility aspect will be slightly damaged if there was a finite amount of credits you can draw from it!
When I don't use three dots in a row you know I've done this in rough first...
- Magicfinger
- Staff
- Posts: 1078
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:38 am
- Location: here,there and everywhere
ok enoughs enough...
i dont think the attitude or the personal insults that were thrown around in this post are giving the game a very good impression..
Were working to get new features into the game to try and attract/keep new players and these sort of post do not help..
Spider i have kept your post in place as i think there is a discussion worth having around the points you made.
i dont think the attitude or the personal insults that were thrown around in this post are giving the game a very good impression..
Were working to get new features into the game to try and attract/keep new players and these sort of post do not help..
Spider i have kept your post in place as i think there is a discussion worth having around the points you made.
Thanks for doing that.......I think that the last post was particularly important and raised some important questions... but since its deleted and theres probably no copy of it...well, theres another particularly embarrassing part of a-tractor gone...I've also noticed the other time when Zaroba banned me is gone too...
You can delete this too if you want, but its my topic and I think I'm entitled to add to it a little.
You can delete this too if you want, but its my topic and I think I'm entitled to add to it a little.
- Magicfinger
- Staff
- Posts: 1078
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:38 am
- Location: here,there and everywhere
anticipating the fact that somebody would want to refernece back to the old post i have taken the rest of the posts moved them to a private forum unitil i can get a chance to go through them properly and remove the less than favourable stuff in it.
{EDIT << comes back to clarify so that it cant be taken out of context .. Less than favourable= Sexaul comments, pesonal insults and pointless flaming...Magic }
Spider i felt that by keeping your original post i wasnt removing your topic and was trying to keep within the spirit of forums.
Magic.
{EDIT << comes back to clarify so that it cant be taken out of context .. Less than favourable= Sexaul comments, pesonal insults and pointless flaming...Magic }
Spider i felt that by keeping your original post i wasnt removing your topic and was trying to keep within the spirit of forums.
Magic.
i think the post is one valid way of going about a world, though i personally would rather find a way to have an island endure longevity. i agree that i like anything that moves towards independent autonomy server-wise however.
not to oversimplify your post (and yes i read it), but i think we can, putting it rather tersely, sum things up in saying that player apathy is the problem, and you and certainly other players don't like the way current island owners have solved the problem, either with shorter run worlds or screwing about with longterm worlds in the same timeframe due to apathetic / bored players who have nothing to do.
personally, i'd rather give those players something to do.
my .02 take on the matter:
1] most mmorpg games have some level of apathy to battle. most solve it with worldwide events, introductions of new quests, items, etcetera. some of that - particularly events - is planned for some future point in development.
2] i think some of the power players, and some of the lesser players such as my self, would rather not "die" so to speak. even if rewarded with galactic credits. in the case of tunbridge. we've both seen the rather double-edged sword many times with long-term econ where the very players who say they're bored will balk if they have to start over and get bumped from the top ten.
perhaps there could be a better way.
recently, i've been requesting a lot more "powerup" items for the game - things like the new surface shields and weaponproof shields that are already in there. i've no idea if these will be included now or ever, but i figured i'd toot my own position a bit and see if anyone else thought it was neat
things like "better tires" (+25 to speed when equipped), "better armour" (+10 to armour when equipped), "health pack" (resets health when used), "diving suit" (immunity to water damage)
the list was rather long.
what i envision - a setting where you can limit the number of these "special items", so that even if power players collect them all and keep them in their house, they can only equip so many at a time.
the majority of rpg games tend to be structured so that even after you get to level 5934589375, you still have some limitations on what you can do, so the adventure is still there. in our game, you get the final vehicle and that's it - which makes the players conclude that the whole game is just getting richest, getting the vehicle, and thassit. there's nothing else to get.
having a variety of additional items, and a limitation on which can be used, how many, where and when will add a nonlinear depth to the game, and give the higher players something to keep moving towards. reine is far from perfect and certainly not for everyone, but one thing i do think is quite effective is the harsh limit on skills and building slots. people bitch about it, but they keep working around it anyway. the big trick is finding that balance between challenge and "ah feck i don't wanna do this anymore".
when coupled with some fighting where you lose items if blown to bits, that should keep the players reasonably busy if the items in question are priced properly.
one of the main things i cite as being a problem for rich guys, is there's no challenges when they have 9k+. island owners, myself included, need to create higher tiers of econ that will continue to be more challenging. mit has illustrated this with zion, where time is the challenge more than cash really, but again i feel the wait time might be a bit too extreme for my personal tastes.
finding this balance between challenge and frusteration is a terribly difficult job. the new items stuff would be in mit's hands, but finding that balance is the job probably every server owner should be constantly thinking as new planets go up.
and so concludes my long post in which maybe two sentences were important.
at best
not to oversimplify your post (and yes i read it), but i think we can, putting it rather tersely, sum things up in saying that player apathy is the problem, and you and certainly other players don't like the way current island owners have solved the problem, either with shorter run worlds or screwing about with longterm worlds in the same timeframe due to apathetic / bored players who have nothing to do.
personally, i'd rather give those players something to do.
my .02 take on the matter:
1] most mmorpg games have some level of apathy to battle. most solve it with worldwide events, introductions of new quests, items, etcetera. some of that - particularly events - is planned for some future point in development.
2] i think some of the power players, and some of the lesser players such as my self, would rather not "die" so to speak. even if rewarded with galactic credits. in the case of tunbridge. we've both seen the rather double-edged sword many times with long-term econ where the very players who say they're bored will balk if they have to start over and get bumped from the top ten.
perhaps there could be a better way.
recently, i've been requesting a lot more "powerup" items for the game - things like the new surface shields and weaponproof shields that are already in there. i've no idea if these will be included now or ever, but i figured i'd toot my own position a bit and see if anyone else thought it was neat
things like "better tires" (+25 to speed when equipped), "better armour" (+10 to armour when equipped), "health pack" (resets health when used), "diving suit" (immunity to water damage)
the list was rather long.
what i envision - a setting where you can limit the number of these "special items", so that even if power players collect them all and keep them in their house, they can only equip so many at a time.
the majority of rpg games tend to be structured so that even after you get to level 5934589375, you still have some limitations on what you can do, so the adventure is still there. in our game, you get the final vehicle and that's it - which makes the players conclude that the whole game is just getting richest, getting the vehicle, and thassit. there's nothing else to get.
having a variety of additional items, and a limitation on which can be used, how many, where and when will add a nonlinear depth to the game, and give the higher players something to keep moving towards. reine is far from perfect and certainly not for everyone, but one thing i do think is quite effective is the harsh limit on skills and building slots. people bitch about it, but they keep working around it anyway. the big trick is finding that balance between challenge and "ah feck i don't wanna do this anymore".
when coupled with some fighting where you lose items if blown to bits, that should keep the players reasonably busy if the items in question are priced properly.
one of the main things i cite as being a problem for rich guys, is there's no challenges when they have 9k+. island owners, myself included, need to create higher tiers of econ that will continue to be more challenging. mit has illustrated this with zion, where time is the challenge more than cash really, but again i feel the wait time might be a bit too extreme for my personal tastes.
finding this balance between challenge and frusteration is a terribly difficult job. the new items stuff would be in mit's hands, but finding that balance is the job probably every server owner should be constantly thinking as new planets go up.
and so concludes my long post in which maybe two sentences were important.
at best
a multi wealth level economy has proven somewhat bad in past zorics.
thier isen't much besides vehiles and weapons that could me made higher tiered, and these both have the same complaint, along the lines of "making them only available for rich guys".
with weps you end up getting rampant, bored, rich people blowing up defenseless players.
with vehicles (which i have always 'tiered' by means of somewhat exponential cost increase)
you end up with people either not buying the vehicles at all, or just sticking with slower ones since they are happy with the one they have and woulden't want to get kicked off the top wealth list by wasteing money on the slightly faster vehicle,
either way, you end up with a business the rich can get into but nobody else, which turns to rich people getting richer, which isen't too fun for the poor people who will find it harder to get rich.
thier isen't much besides vehiles and weapons that could me made higher tiered, and these both have the same complaint, along the lines of "making them only available for rich guys".
with weps you end up getting rampant, bored, rich people blowing up defenseless players.
with vehicles (which i have always 'tiered' by means of somewhat exponential cost increase)
you end up with people either not buying the vehicles at all, or just sticking with slower ones since they are happy with the one they have and woulden't want to get kicked off the top wealth list by wasteing money on the slightly faster vehicle,
either way, you end up with a business the rich can get into but nobody else, which turns to rich people getting richer, which isen't too fun for the poor people who will find it harder to get rich.
What do you do when you've beaten single-player quake, or half life, or gta? Go back and play it again? Well, maybe, but most likely not unless you're a total fanatic.
What do you do when you've beaten Civ, or C&C, or beaten your friend at chess? Go back and play it again? Yeh, most likely. Same applies to multiplayer variants of the above. The challenge is in playing the best game possible with a set of arbitrary rules.
Personally I think this "problem" will be solved when there are lots more worlds to play on. I'd encourage owners to set time limits for games, even if those limits are weeks or months long. We have to cater for hardcore types who have the time to spend hours building up empires as well as people like me who have lives (only kidding :), sure: but even then, there has to be a limit - or else, as people rightly recognise, you end up with an unbridgeable divide between new players and established players. When we've got 10,000 people playing that won't be a problem - you can have "ultraD00d world" where only the real experienced players will survive, cos there'll be loads of other places for people to go. For now tho it can be a problem... except... the galactic character system overcomes it. Or will do once it's all up and running. Start thinking in terms of your galactic character and galactic credits, and gameplay where, even if you can't "do" a given world, cos maybe you're crap at racing games, or econ games, or just plain don't like a certain set-up, there'll be plenty of others to go explore. It's a while away, sure, but how much more interesting will it be to establish a galactic empire across multiple player-owned worlds (think X-btf and Elite, only better) than just being numero uno on one planet?
The other thing I'd add is that we need some kind of permanent kudos-type display of all the best players - so that even if, to take a random example, Tom gets bored stiff of owning the last blade of grass on a planet, he can reset to start the challenge again knowing that past achievements will be forever enshrined somewhere in the game. Like, on the new website, perhaps :) For now it might be as simple as an on-world billboard with a texture the owner updates with the names of the greatest ever players, or something. Enough to satisfy those hungry for fame, I'd have thought.
f
What do you do when you've beaten Civ, or C&C, or beaten your friend at chess? Go back and play it again? Yeh, most likely. Same applies to multiplayer variants of the above. The challenge is in playing the best game possible with a set of arbitrary rules.
Personally I think this "problem" will be solved when there are lots more worlds to play on. I'd encourage owners to set time limits for games, even if those limits are weeks or months long. We have to cater for hardcore types who have the time to spend hours building up empires as well as people like me who have lives (only kidding :), sure: but even then, there has to be a limit - or else, as people rightly recognise, you end up with an unbridgeable divide between new players and established players. When we've got 10,000 people playing that won't be a problem - you can have "ultraD00d world" where only the real experienced players will survive, cos there'll be loads of other places for people to go. For now tho it can be a problem... except... the galactic character system overcomes it. Or will do once it's all up and running. Start thinking in terms of your galactic character and galactic credits, and gameplay where, even if you can't "do" a given world, cos maybe you're crap at racing games, or econ games, or just plain don't like a certain set-up, there'll be plenty of others to go explore. It's a while away, sure, but how much more interesting will it be to establish a galactic empire across multiple player-owned worlds (think X-btf and Elite, only better) than just being numero uno on one planet?
The other thing I'd add is that we need some kind of permanent kudos-type display of all the best players - so that even if, to take a random example, Tom gets bored stiff of owning the last blade of grass on a planet, he can reset to start the challenge again knowing that past achievements will be forever enshrined somewhere in the game. Like, on the new website, perhaps :) For now it might be as simple as an on-world billboard with a texture the owner updates with the names of the greatest ever players, or something. Enough to satisfy those hungry for fame, I'd have thought.
f
i think the thing i'm eluding to tho zar would be that it might be more effective to have "balanced" items and equipment, where you can't have it all with any single item, vs. straight linear tiers where everyone just goes "what's the best vehicle in the game?", then gets it, and has nowhere to go from there.
v3 goes fast but has crap armour and guzzles fuel. medium capacity.
v4 has infinite capacity but is totally slow and has heavy armour. fuel is medium high.
v5 has low capacity and medium speed, but uses nearly zero fuel and has a medium armour.
and maybe there's a limit of vehicles you can own at one time. right now afaik most places are still structured by "and faster and better, and faster and better, and faster and better", and a lot just skip the whole thing and buy the v20 or v5 or whatever everyone agrees is the best one. 20 slots, and it usually all comes down to one or two vehicles. and that still doesn't really solve the apathy problem where most think "it's just vehicles and mansions", if that's the only thing we're workin' with.
similar to this with vehicles, we need more "stuff" for these guys to get, and a way to continually introduce more items. a big thing with most mmorpgs from what i can tell is that they always have new items entering the system "go search the planets for the new sword of wounding +5", that sorta thing.
fooli - yeh i agree in the shorter term worlds, but even those right now have a certain apathy since all you can make 'em do is get vehicles and build buildings. character building has potential with all the skill level support, but i think we need a bit more to really give greater sense of accomplishment to all but the most fanatical players.
perma kudos is a great idea. agreed that the permanent character, non-perma worlds is one of the best ways to have the best of both worlds, pun intended.
i think my only concern with that as of yet, is that there's no way for the starport to manage itself. i would rather create entirely new "versions" of a theme than just reloading a world, so it becomes impractical to ask mit to reset the rules on my starport every week or two. that issue solved, i'd love the current system as-is.
v3 goes fast but has crap armour and guzzles fuel. medium capacity.
v4 has infinite capacity but is totally slow and has heavy armour. fuel is medium high.
v5 has low capacity and medium speed, but uses nearly zero fuel and has a medium armour.
and maybe there's a limit of vehicles you can own at one time. right now afaik most places are still structured by "and faster and better, and faster and better, and faster and better", and a lot just skip the whole thing and buy the v20 or v5 or whatever everyone agrees is the best one. 20 slots, and it usually all comes down to one or two vehicles. and that still doesn't really solve the apathy problem where most think "it's just vehicles and mansions", if that's the only thing we're workin' with.
similar to this with vehicles, we need more "stuff" for these guys to get, and a way to continually introduce more items. a big thing with most mmorpgs from what i can tell is that they always have new items entering the system "go search the planets for the new sword of wounding +5", that sorta thing.
fooli - yeh i agree in the shorter term worlds, but even those right now have a certain apathy since all you can make 'em do is get vehicles and build buildings. character building has potential with all the skill level support, but i think we need a bit more to really give greater sense of accomplishment to all but the most fanatical players.
perma kudos is a great idea. agreed that the permanent character, non-perma worlds is one of the best ways to have the best of both worlds, pun intended.
i think my only concern with that as of yet, is that there's no way for the starport to manage itself. i would rather create entirely new "versions" of a theme than just reloading a world, so it becomes impractical to ask mit to reset the rules on my starport every week or two. that issue solved, i'd love the current system as-is.
Last edited by hedgehog on Wed Jul 07, 2004 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stay ignorant, then.
Hedgie: i agree that "stuff" is important, and it'd be nice if we had a way of giving long-term players "uniques", even if it's just something cosmetic like a model or a skin or somethin. We've talked about that before, I'm sure. Personally I think the mmorpg thing about just adding stuff to the world, like new quests etc, is rubbish - it sticks a big sword of wounding through the suspension of disbelief when suddenly there's this new continent no-one ever heard of before, or whatever. This system (when it's workin) would be much nicer, cos players could ultimately go colonize their own planet and the game universe develops in a much more natural, organic way. In theory, anyway :)
Personally I think the apathy thing is just because people, especially *some* people, are apathetic. I think your approach to world-building is ideal - zar's too, most likely, tho I've never played on zoric - in that you have a general theme and ring the changes every now and then with a relaunched/new & improved/etc version. I can see people wanting to come back to rb4 cos they liked the gameplay on 2 and 3, same kinds of challenges but different enough to warrant a "replay". And that works best if it happens every few (days/weeks/months) etc. And ideally the setup means the concept of "best" vehicle is irrelevant, cos all of them are important to the gameplay. That takes loads of work, I know, but it's moving that way I think. People who just want the biggest/fastest are equivalent to rocketlauncher campers IMO - ie, they're just naturally dull :)
Other than that, if people get bored, well... they should go read a book or something. It's only a game. Maybe learn how to code, skin or model. That'd be nice :)
f
Hedgie: i agree that "stuff" is important, and it'd be nice if we had a way of giving long-term players "uniques", even if it's just something cosmetic like a model or a skin or somethin. We've talked about that before, I'm sure. Personally I think the mmorpg thing about just adding stuff to the world, like new quests etc, is rubbish - it sticks a big sword of wounding through the suspension of disbelief when suddenly there's this new continent no-one ever heard of before, or whatever. This system (when it's workin) would be much nicer, cos players could ultimately go colonize their own planet and the game universe develops in a much more natural, organic way. In theory, anyway :)
Personally I think the apathy thing is just because people, especially *some* people, are apathetic. I think your approach to world-building is ideal - zar's too, most likely, tho I've never played on zoric - in that you have a general theme and ring the changes every now and then with a relaunched/new & improved/etc version. I can see people wanting to come back to rb4 cos they liked the gameplay on 2 and 3, same kinds of challenges but different enough to warrant a "replay". And that works best if it happens every few (days/weeks/months) etc. And ideally the setup means the concept of "best" vehicle is irrelevant, cos all of them are important to the gameplay. That takes loads of work, I know, but it's moving that way I think. People who just want the biggest/fastest are equivalent to rocketlauncher campers IMO - ie, they're just naturally dull :)
Other than that, if people get bored, well... they should go read a book or something. It's only a game. Maybe learn how to code, skin or model. That'd be nice :)
f
heheheh, yeh, quite right on that. i think it goes back to that younger playerbase thing a bit as well. i always envision some hyperactive seven year old just bangin on buttons with no real clue what's goin on.Fooli wrote:rocketlauncher campers IMO - ie, they're just naturally dull
soundin like me in that other post, heheh. praps mit should make a-life, which just generates random busywork for the boredoms to hammer away onFooli wrote:Other than that, if people get bored, well... they should go read a book or something. It's only a game. Maybe learn how to code, skin or model. That'd be nice