This is a just a general idea I would like to share with some people. Fairly obviously since I don't have a 24hr computer I will not be able to implement it but I feel the need to write it down anyway. This is actually a fairly standard idea and I'm not too sure if some of the players have actually done this but basically it is the progression idea:
Lets imagine someone starts off in an island. He or she has 1000s starting cash and sees all of these buildings which he wants for himself. He decides to go into the food business because he felt like it (hey, its the strategy I use whenever I try to make money). He can make three buildings to achieve this aim: a Hot Dog Stand, a Burger Bar and a Restuarant. However, he decides to build the hot dog stand because he wants to have some money left for some other things such as a home and some food and drinks to stock the home withand also if he wouldn't be able to build the more expensive Burger Bar and Restuarant.
After building the hot dog stand he cleverly manages to get some money by actually setting the to buy and to sell prices. He now has some money. He then sells off his hot dog stand and makes a burger bar and a better part of the island. Although the burger bar is more expensive it can hold more stock and produces more food a lot quicker and cheaper with the added bonus of selling other stock. Now he can make even more money and can even expand into other businesses like the materials business (with the buidings: sawmill, big mill, mine, big mine etc...)
The whole point of this is the sence of progression, that after you make some money, you can use it to upgrade the buildings you own into something more expensive and effiecient. Of course, if you don't lke the food analogy and am wondering where all the drinks went you can always replace the hot dog stand etc... with market stall, corner shop and High street stores, which are more generic sounding and can possibly sell other stuff like compasses and fuel.
Almost all games use this sort of progression, even RTS games, where you can get more powerful but even more expensive starships, or more efficient resource centres. Since I can't have my own world/island I can't really make use of this idea so I'm hoping other players might...
I would like your opinions on this
~_~
it already in the game 
think about car shop's it gose the same way your talking about
(i think i donno i just woke up when i wrote this)
think about car shop's it gose the same way your talking about (i think i donno i just woke up when i wrote this
)
The problem is that the game currently isnt very progression friendly to a large base of players (maybe with the update ... who knows ... not me anyways 
).
You see the thing is that once you sell your burger stand to someone he will want to go the same way of progression as you do. However since you can produce food cheaper all people will buy your stuff and not stuff from the burger stand. Therefore the burgerstand owner can never reach the next step.
Just take a look at the car business - if you are the first to build a car showroom people will buy from you ... once you have sold a handful of cars you can build the next showroom. Someone who will buy your old showroom or build his own little showroom will have no customers left due to small player base and no vehicle breakdown.
The idea is nice to give players some way of progression but its just a bit hard to give everyone equal chances. I mean even if you start to play on an island in Year 2 you will have missed out great possibilites already and (without a family) you will have a tough time making big money.
Anyways lets see what Mit got for us
).You see the thing is that once you sell your burger stand to someone he will want to go the same way of progression as you do. However since you can produce food cheaper all people will buy your stuff and not stuff from the burger stand. Therefore the burgerstand owner can never reach the next step.
Just take a look at the car business - if you are the first to build a car showroom people will buy from you ... once you have sold a handful of cars you can build the next showroom. Someone who will buy your old showroom or build his own little showroom will have no customers left due to small player base and no vehicle breakdown.
The idea is nice to give players some way of progression but its just a bit hard to give everyone equal chances. I mean even if you start to play on an island in Year 2 you will have missed out great possibilites already and (without a family) you will have a tough time making big money.
Anyways lets see what Mit got for us
building decay could easily help that by making the buildings owned by rich inactives fall apart after a few years. but most times that building decay is utilised to the point of it being effective, most people complain about it. Inactivity limit has the same effect, however once again, if set short enough to be of a dramatic use to the economy (like only a few real days), players complain
thier are settings to make it so a vehicle is lost once it's blown up, also not used much due to players complaining about it alot. and when it is used, thier are bugs to get around it that alot of players know of or easily find.
thier are settings to make it so a vehicle is lost once it's blown up, also not used much due to players complaining about it alot. and when it is used, thier are bugs to get around it that alot of players know of or easily find.
The problem with building decay seems that you need a huge amount of materials to repair the buildings in comparison to what you needed to build em ... so it would be easier to build a new building than repairing the old one.
If it is a setting then i suggest to set it to a smaller amount (so that you need like 50-80% of the buildings materials to repair it if its completely damaged)
Also losing the vehicle if it blows up doesnt seem the right way to me - it would be better if you need vehicle parts to repair the vehicle as it used to in 03 and prior to that. The vehicle could also have a decay rate as the buildings ... so the more you drive the more it will break down.
An idea could be to introduce NPCs who act as consumers (since a low populated island is almost generating no demand at all) - though i think it would be a bit complex to programm them.
If it is a setting then i suggest to set it to a smaller amount (so that you need like 50-80% of the buildings materials to repair it if its completely damaged)
Also losing the vehicle if it blows up doesnt seem the right way to me - it would be better if you need vehicle parts to repair the vehicle as it used to in 03 and prior to that. The vehicle could also have a decay rate as the buildings ... so the more you drive the more it will break down.
An idea could be to introduce NPCs who act as consumers (since a low populated island is almost generating no demand at all) - though i think it would be a bit complex to programm them.
Yes, but the advanced buildings will still have to buy stuff as much as the others, so will get sticked by the same amount by everybody else. This will mean that it will run out and then other people will buy the slightly more expensive, but available stock.
Having government employee bonus seemed to work, even if it was a bit unrealistic, but would have to be added to the employer's bank account/cash in pocket as pay isn't taken from investment anymore.
The NPC effect could be very small, perhaps they are invisible tramps who don't live in homes and buy buildings, but will buy some food and drinks. Although that would be a bit of a problem because it might cause a lack of drinks and food for real players.
And a real bonus would be if islands were bigger and towns could contain 100 well placed buildings, just like in 03. For one thing there would be more space. Back in Zoric II, there were whole swathes full of farms, as far back as the eye could see, even with .drawdist 1000. I don't know why, but cabins making fert for free also seemed to help too. So did fert farms in Underground.
Having government employee bonus seemed to work, even if it was a bit unrealistic, but would have to be added to the employer's bank account/cash in pocket as pay isn't taken from investment anymore.
The NPC effect could be very small, perhaps they are invisible tramps who don't live in homes and buy buildings, but will buy some food and drinks. Although that would be a bit of a problem because it might cause a lack of drinks and food for real players.
And a real bonus would be if islands were bigger and towns could contain 100 well placed buildings, just like in 03. For one thing there would be more space. Back in Zoric II, there were whole swathes full of farms, as far back as the eye could see, even with .drawdist 1000. I don't know why, but cabins making fert for free also seemed to help too. So did fert farms in Underground.
it is also possible to set the materials needed to repair a fully destroyed building.
something that i'm planning to go with on on the bdat for zoric 6 is to make it so that buildings cost more in money to build then they do in money used to buy materials to finish them. so, a building that costs 100 wood or so would cost 300s cash to start, and the wood might be 15d each for another 15s. think it puts the emphisis back on spending cash to build the building and then just buying the cheap materials to finish it, since materials will be under 50d to make, wood under 25d.
the houses making waste is something i liked also, perhaps i'll bring that back for zoric 6, although, when they did that, players complained how it ruined the fert market.
something that i'm planning to go with on on the bdat for zoric 6 is to make it so that buildings cost more in money to build then they do in money used to buy materials to finish them. so, a building that costs 100 wood or so would cost 300s cash to start, and the wood might be 15d each for another 15s. think it puts the emphisis back on spending cash to build the building and then just buying the cheap materials to finish it, since materials will be under 50d to make, wood under 25d.
the houses making waste is something i liked also, perhaps i'll bring that back for zoric 6, although, when they did that, players complained how it ruined the fert market.
Last edited by zaroba on Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I think that bigger buildings will run out so seldom that it doesnt really change the situation for the hot dog stand ... and as people will have stocked their house with food they can wait till the burger restaurant is stocked again.
Well i thought that npcs would only start to consum when certain limits are reached ... ie if you have 100 players alive on your island you will get like 10 npcs who will buy tea, coffee, steaks, fuel, maybe wood, stone etc.
The thing with 03 was that there was always the possibilities to get cash by delivering stuff (with 14 denari to 1s and usually 1d transportation reward per item you could earn a good amount of money if you are active). Nowadays delivering would still be possible but as the core of players are hardcore players they will rather produce stuff for themselves or buy from someone and stock themselves as its cheaper and can save a bit of money. The only one i have seen making delivering possible is andy (who buys chems at 61d and right next to his fuel ref is a chem lab selling at 57d ... which is a bit less than you got in 03 for transporting).
Well lets see how it will be in 04
Well i thought that npcs would only start to consum when certain limits are reached ... ie if you have 100 players alive on your island you will get like 10 npcs who will buy tea, coffee, steaks, fuel, maybe wood, stone etc.
The thing with 03 was that there was always the possibilities to get cash by delivering stuff (with 14 denari to 1s and usually 1d transportation reward per item you could earn a good amount of money if you are active). Nowadays delivering would still be possible but as the core of players are hardcore players they will rather produce stuff for themselves or buy from someone and stock themselves as its cheaper and can save a bit of money. The only one i have seen making delivering possible is andy (who buys chems at 61d and right next to his fuel ref is a chem lab selling at 57d ... which is a bit less than you got in 03 for transporting).
Well lets see how it will be in 04
mit had made the island map much smaller due to game limitations. the main being that haveing to download a 100kb map every logon was a pain in the arse. the smaller maps combined with smaller towns and a smaller required distance between buildings means you still can place 100 buildings in a town.
well, before buying and stocking, everybody complained about the problem of not being able to buy and sometimes stagnate economies due to inactive players holding important buildings. the buy from a different player and stock it into your building adds realism and prevents stagnate economies. it also solves the problems of inactive players appearing on the top wealth list from thier buildings selling stuff since building purchases go into the buildings investment which doesen't add to top wealth.
besides that, the prices players sell/buy for is upto the players themselves and not the game itself. mit could program in a way to set mandatory sell/buy limitations, but i'm quite certain that would greatly pansy off more players then it'd please.
the 1d tranjsfering problem only seems to bug those of us that have played during the 14d per s times, all the players that have joined during the current times aren't bothered by it.
and a way to solve the hotdog/hamburger stand situation is just make food in house not so worthwile that you can last 10 days off 3 hamburgers and a few drinks. thats quite easy to do, but players will complain alot about it
well, before buying and stocking, everybody complained about the problem of not being able to buy and sometimes stagnate economies due to inactive players holding important buildings. the buy from a different player and stock it into your building adds realism and prevents stagnate economies. it also solves the problems of inactive players appearing on the top wealth list from thier buildings selling stuff since building purchases go into the buildings investment which doesen't add to top wealth.
besides that, the prices players sell/buy for is upto the players themselves and not the game itself. mit could program in a way to set mandatory sell/buy limitations, but i'm quite certain that would greatly pansy off more players then it'd please.
the 1d tranjsfering problem only seems to bug those of us that have played during the 14d per s times, all the players that have joined during the current times aren't bothered by it.
and a way to solve the hotdog/hamburger stand situation is just make food in house not so worthwile that you can last 10 days off 3 hamburgers and a few drinks. thats quite easy to do, but players will complain alot about it
i am not really bothered by the 1d for transportation since i always start my own business now ... but it used to be a good way of making money. And as i have my own business i liked to stock it myself to get the cheapest deal
The idea would be to equal out the amount of food and drink you need ... the food business has always been a worse deal than the drink since on most island you only needed half (or less) food in comparison to drinks.
A higher hunger and thirst rate in building would help the situation i think (not only creating more demand but also inactive players die faster).
The idea would be to equal out the amount of food and drink you need ... the food business has always been a worse deal than the drink since on most island you only needed half (or less) food in comparison to drinks.
A higher hunger and thirst rate in building would help the situation i think (not only creating more demand but also inactive players die faster).
The fact was that the fert business wasn't destroyed by cabins-they were the fert business, and anyway, they only made about 25 fert every 24 hours. Plus they drove the economy because the farms businesses are the main driving force behind the economy due to the food and drinks they produce (everyone needs food and drinks, so money circulate more often in the economy) The two most successful islands in 03 both had cheap and quick methods of producing fert (in Underground it was fert farms). Anyway, most cattle farmers don't like adding invest for corn and crops and realising that fert was produced instead.
"The stagnant economy due to inactive players with important buildings" wasn't that big a deal. After all, those players who complained could go get some money and build those "important buildings" and problem solved. Plus I was never aware of any players complaining about important buildings held by inactive players.
And people wouldn't complain if hunger and thirst was higher if food was cheap to make. There, problem solved. However this might lead to a shortage of food if they were bought quickly, but not really, since people will realise a shortage af food and will bring up the supply by building more cafes and butcher shops.
The economy in 03 was pretty easy to get into. All you had to do was to put some invest for production buildings, sell stuff at one or 2 denarii above build price, set employee pay at the government employment benefit and tada, money made. For Manufacturing and Shops, set To Buy prices at one or two denarii above the To Sell price for your goods demanded and sell stock produced at one or two denarii above build price, unless for stuff like cars, and money made. The government employment benefit is another point. Back then, with employment you would make the salary the same as the employment benefit because anything less and people wouldn't go into it and you will be called stingy. Plus it would actually neatly solve the problem of the progression thing, because the benefit did not apply to people who had a bove a certain amount of money (in Zoric II it was 2500s). Very obvious, self evident and user friendly.
What did happen to the "if you have a skill, all your buildings will act like as if it had workers of that skill" thing? The lack of that Thing doesn't make sence, and has contibuted to the demise of privately owned schools. In my memory, not many 04 islands had even one privately owned school, and Eville only had them because it had such a large popualtion base
"The stagnant economy due to inactive players with important buildings" wasn't that big a deal. After all, those players who complained could go get some money and build those "important buildings" and problem solved. Plus I was never aware of any players complaining about important buildings held by inactive players.
And people wouldn't complain if hunger and thirst was higher if food was cheap to make. There, problem solved. However this might lead to a shortage of food if they were bought quickly, but not really, since people will realise a shortage af food and will bring up the supply by building more cafes and butcher shops.
The economy in 03 was pretty easy to get into. All you had to do was to put some invest for production buildings, sell stuff at one or 2 denarii above build price, set employee pay at the government employment benefit and tada, money made. For Manufacturing and Shops, set To Buy prices at one or two denarii above the To Sell price for your goods demanded and sell stock produced at one or two denarii above build price, unless for stuff like cars, and money made. The government employment benefit is another point. Back then, with employment you would make the salary the same as the employment benefit because anything less and people wouldn't go into it and you will be called stingy. Plus it would actually neatly solve the problem of the progression thing, because the benefit did not apply to people who had a bove a certain amount of money (in Zoric II it was 2500s). Very obvious, self evident and user friendly.
What did happen to the "if you have a skill, all your buildings will act like as if it had workers of that skill" thing? The lack of that Thing doesn't make sence, and has contibuted to the demise of privately owned schools. In my memory, not many 04 islands had even one privately owned school, and Eville only had them because it had such a large popualtion base
think mit removed the self working thing because it lead to lots of players not being able to get a job due to the fact the owner worked in the place. although the owner working in a building is realistic, if you have 10 different buildings, you shoulden't be able to work in each of them.
privatly owned schools were never a big success from what i saw, true players could make money from them, but most of the player owned schools i saw in 03 and 04 sold skills at min price, which yields no profit.
the stagnate economy with rich inactives holding important buildings seemed to be a big problem to me (mainly due to the tons of IMs, PMs, in-game/out-game e-mails i got about zoric). true the other players could just make money and build the important things (which i always told players back then), but how could they do that in a few days when the inactive players held alot of uninvested buildings that bought stuff others sold? also when the rich players diden't offer jobs because they learnt the skill needed for the buildings? thiers 2 ways of making money eliminated, transfering and jobs. only other way was unemployment, which in 03, would always take you 5-10 game years to save up enough to build something of importance, and by then, you'd need to spend the money on food/drinks or fuel. this might be alright for players that only log in once a week or 2, but what about the people that like playing a few times a week or every day? should an active player be forced to do nothing but chat in a game they like but can't play because rich players own uninvested buildings that don't offer jobs because they have the needed skill? true thier is the way of selling stuff from your buildings still, but with rich, inactive players holding the buildings that buy your stuff, or make what your buildings hold, how are you going to sell stuff? still might be alright for a long term player, but a new player to the game might not stay due to it all.
Guess an island could be set up so it has 1 of each building gov owned buying and selling so that no matter what thier is surplus of, it can still be sold and no matter what is a shortage of, it could still be baught. i'll try that in zoric 6
cheap food might be good to counter act the hunger/thirst, but if money isen't also harder to make, then it will have no effect as players will just be able to buy more food/drink instead of less that lasts longer.
privatly owned schools were never a big success from what i saw, true players could make money from them, but most of the player owned schools i saw in 03 and 04 sold skills at min price, which yields no profit.
the stagnate economy with rich inactives holding important buildings seemed to be a big problem to me (mainly due to the tons of IMs, PMs, in-game/out-game e-mails i got about zoric). true the other players could just make money and build the important things (which i always told players back then), but how could they do that in a few days when the inactive players held alot of uninvested buildings that bought stuff others sold? also when the rich players diden't offer jobs because they learnt the skill needed for the buildings? thiers 2 ways of making money eliminated, transfering and jobs. only other way was unemployment, which in 03, would always take you 5-10 game years to save up enough to build something of importance, and by then, you'd need to spend the money on food/drinks or fuel. this might be alright for players that only log in once a week or 2, but what about the people that like playing a few times a week or every day? should an active player be forced to do nothing but chat in a game they like but can't play because rich players own uninvested buildings that don't offer jobs because they have the needed skill? true thier is the way of selling stuff from your buildings still, but with rich, inactive players holding the buildings that buy your stuff, or make what your buildings hold, how are you going to sell stuff? still might be alright for a long term player, but a new player to the game might not stay due to it all.
Guess an island could be set up so it has 1 of each building gov owned buying and selling so that no matter what thier is surplus of, it can still be sold and no matter what is a shortage of, it could still be baught. i'll try that in zoric 6
cheap food might be good to counter act the hunger/thirst, but if money isen't also harder to make, then it will have no effect as players will just be able to buy more food/drink instead of less that lasts longer.
Ok, fairly obviously someone is trying to pansy everyone off, (and hopefully he won't get congratulated on his 'many contributions to the forums') but anyway...
The self working thing was ok because it supplemented the government employment bonus. When you had to stop hiring workers due to the limit which stops the bonus when you have the certain amount of money, you was forced to either not hire any more wokers or get the skill. Either way, it wouldn't make a difference because the building wouldn't get workers anyway.
The reason why schools had their prices set at the lowest price was because people didn't realise that profit came from the price above the minimum price. Personally, I don't see a reason why there has to be a minimum price at all, and while all other things get profit at what they are sold at ( not including tax of course), it's just strange that schools should be exempt in this way.
The answer to all those sentences with a question mark behind it is Yes ( I love it when you can answer retorical questions). The rich inactives wasn't really a problem, instead it just means that yey are doing so well they are inactive. It would help if you gave me an example but never mind...Plus they were not ruly inactive...they had to log in for a few seconds to ensure survival. I don't really see the problem with the 'inactives' having useful buildings which are buying and selling stuff. In other words those complainers were people who wanted to get rid of their successful competitors and saw complaining about their inactivity as the means.
I agree about the cheap food thing (after all I don't just automatically decide to counter any argument you decide to make)The whole point of the increace needs thing is to make poeple go and make more money circulate more often and making food cheaper would defeat the point. In the end its all just a balance, although as I suggested before, the economy will sort itself out anyway.
The self working thing was ok because it supplemented the government employment bonus. When you had to stop hiring workers due to the limit which stops the bonus when you have the certain amount of money, you was forced to either not hire any more wokers or get the skill. Either way, it wouldn't make a difference because the building wouldn't get workers anyway.
The reason why schools had their prices set at the lowest price was because people didn't realise that profit came from the price above the minimum price. Personally, I don't see a reason why there has to be a minimum price at all, and while all other things get profit at what they are sold at ( not including tax of course), it's just strange that schools should be exempt in this way.
The answer to all those sentences with a question mark behind it is Yes ( I love it when you can answer retorical questions). The rich inactives wasn't really a problem, instead it just means that yey are doing so well they are inactive. It would help if you gave me an example but never mind...Plus they were not ruly inactive...they had to log in for a few seconds to ensure survival. I don't really see the problem with the 'inactives' having useful buildings which are buying and selling stuff. In other words those complainers were people who wanted to get rid of their successful competitors and saw complaining about their inactivity as the means.
I agree about the cheap food thing (after all I don't just automatically decide to counter any argument you decide to make)The whole point of the increace needs thing is to make poeple go and make more money circulate more often and making food cheaper would defeat the point. In the end its all just a balance, although as I suggested before, the economy will sort itself out anyway.
yes to everything? so, you really think active players should be forced to do nothing but chat and not play while waiting for unemployment to gather eh? thats sad.
i can't believe that you think thats all people should do is sit and chat waiting for unemployment watching rich players do thing but sit and be lazy.
i can't believe that you think thats all people should do is sit and chat waiting for unemployment watching rich players do thing but sit and be lazy.
This is what happens when you type really quickly just before a film starts on TV...Oh well, what I meant to say is most of those questions 
I never had that problem in Zoric II anyway...The starting cash was enough to build at least two farms and buy a house, which should be enough to keep any player occupied so long as he didn't build it at the edge of the island or something...
I never had that problem in Zoric II anyway...The starting cash was enough to build at least two farms and buy a house, which should be enough to keep any player occupied so long as he didn't build it at the edge of the island or something...