Space trade

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Sonro
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Post by Sonro »

Fooli wrote:
Fun tho innit. And yeh, all u people with massive 50 tonne+ cargo bays, well it just shouldn't be allowed! :)
f
only 47 - I'm not THAT greedy !:lol: (& Mit won't let me have a bigger bay yet)
Fooli wrote: As for "remote" stations allowing trading... hmm. Can see the point from the trade game point of view, but.. why would a dead planet have tradable items at all?

f
why would a dead planet have a spacestation? maybe as a restock point from a galaxy far, far away that we haven't discovered yet - only having L24 stardrive (still hinting...).
point is - they're there - why not use them?
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Post by morbydvisns »

oldcynic wrote:
Fooli wrote:
Fun tho innit. And yeh, all u people with massive 50 tonne+ cargo bays, well it just shouldn't be allowed! :)
f
only 47 - I'm not THAT greedy !:lol: (& Mit won't let me have a bigger bay yet)
Fooli wrote: As for "remote" stations allowing trading... hmm. Can see the point from the trade game point of view, but.. why would a dead planet have tradable items at all?

f
why would a dead planet have a spacestation? maybe as a restock point from a galaxy far, far away that we haven't discovered yet - only having L24 stardrive (still hinting...).
point is - they're there - why not use them?
now we're splittin hairs here :P

if its a dead planet why even have it visible? :D
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Post by Sonro »

maybe its not dead? maybe its just resting?
:D
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Dead Planet?

Post by Chezzie »

Mr. Praline: I wish to complain about this planet what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Port Passenova...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?

Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. 'E's dead, that's what's wrong with it!

Owner: No, no, 'e's uh,...he's resting.

Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead planet when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.

Owner: No no he's not dead, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable planet, the Port Passenova
idn'it, ay? Beautiful fjords!

Mr. Praline: The fjords don't enter into it. It's stone dead.

and so on.....
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Sonro
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Post by Sonro »

Should't that be Mit & Fooli?
:D

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all its power....



without the "dead" planets - how could I tell of my amazing (but now sadly lost in the ether of cyberspace) journeys?
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Post by Sonro »

and moving swiftly on from Pythonesque madness...
Fooli wrote:Interesting. In my experience, computers, metals, minerals, water and food can all make profit, though usually computers and metals are the only things that'll generate >1cr per tonne. Most of these can be traded within a single system (actually just within Tau). f
Just done a scouting infimp around all the systems this morning. Profit margins vary hugely from item to item - and the bigger margins are usually found cross-system (up to 5cr per tonne in some cases for bigger items - but that'll only last for 1, maybe 2 runs before the prices alter significantly) Others, its anything between 0.9cr & 3.cr) - the smallest profit margins remain stable, but the bigger ones crash wildly and rapidly.

Single system trading can be good, as Fooli points out, but (being one of the bigger ships, with larger cargo areas), gaining less than 1.5crper tonne profit, given the cost of the item in the first place, is not really worth doing, and better left to those who are still building up, rather than being monopolised by those of us who can more easily do the inter-system stuff. I tend to leave alone any route that doesn't give me at least 70-100cr profit, and have gotten into the habit of not even looking at the small stuff, just so the beginners have got some chance of trading effectively. Give them at least the chance of becoming viable competition. :wink:
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Post by Fooli »

oldcynic wrote:gaining less than 1.5crper tonne profit, given the cost of the item in the first place, is not really worth doing
Um... not sure I understand that? Profit is profit, surely... makes no difference at the moment whether you make 1cr per tonne on water that costs next to nothin, or 1cr per tonne on expensive computers. That'll change when piracy is more rampant - obviously more expensive cargo carries a greater risk; and I think there's prolly some more balancing to be done in the relative profit margins between items of different cost. It's a bit dumb making more or less the same margin on metals as on computers when one is over twice as expensive as the other.

Of course, I generally bow to your more extensive and far-flung trading experience, so mebbe things change further out. But from my 30t cargo transport/L8 stardrive perspective, there really isn't much point leaving Tau - the extra time it takes to complete the stardrive trip, and get all the way over to Imperial or somewhere, is better spent just doing another trade for .2cr/t less in the system you're in anyway. Profit over time is greater. I think :)
f
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Post by Sonro »

Fooli wrote:
oldcynic wrote:gaining less than 1.5crper tonne profit, given the cost of the item in the first place, is not really worth doing
Um... not sure I understand that? Profit is profit, surely... makes no difference at the moment whether you make 1cr per tonne on water that costs next to nothin, or 1cr per tonne on expensive computers.....

But from my 30t cargo transport/L8 stardrive perspective, there really isn't much point leaving Tau - the extra time it takes to complete the stardrive trip, and get all the way over to Imperial or somewhere, is better spent just doing another trade for .2cr/t less in the system you're in anyway. Profit over time is greater. I think :)
f
reading that sentence in the context of my original comment - what i was trying to get across is exactly that - whilst profit is profit regardless of amount, there are some routes which are definately more viable to a bigger ship cos of faster Ion/better stardrive capacity. So in the time you're making 1c p/t on water (or whatever) in tau, I'm making between 3 & 5 on computers/metals/whatever, getting to imperial in less than 3 mins as opposed to your 10. Its precisely for this reason I dont want to trade purely in one system, and would like to see trade open out even more - not just for my own credit gaining, but also to increase the possibility of competition and challenge, rather than just setting autopilot and doing something else. With 80+k in the bank, and nearest competitor at 50k-ish - taking a 20 or 40 cr profit that would benefit another player and maybe encourage them to stick at it, seems pointless ('specially after starting this whole thread berating those who slated the space trade aspect of the game - another casualty of the SQL crash). The profit is not always merely financial - making room for others to expand and upgrade pays off as they become more competitive and the feel of the game develops - as it will even moreso in the event of piracy. I may not be so nice then....
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Post by Fooli »

Ahh, yes, I see. That does make sense - esp. when bigger ships are faster.

However, what I said to start with still holds true, I think: I can make 2-3 cr profit per tonne on metals, or computers, or even minerals, just in Tau; there's not much more to be made taking it elsewhere.

Obviously you don't make any more profit per tonne just by having a bigger ship, but really you ought to: prices should maybe change according the bulk of what you purchase (I have no idea if that's feasible).

It seems a bit odd to me that some routes become more viable just because you have a faster ship - really larger ships ought to be slower, and use more fuel, in order to force that balance you're trying to achieve by ignoring the smaller trades (which is nice :). The payoff would be in being able to buy and sell in bulk, so you'd make more per tonne, relative to a smaller trader - just like real life.

Of course, larger ships can also be upgraded with bigger engines to compensate, but... I just think there's some balancing to be done, still :)

Fun innit. Again :)

f
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Post by Sonro »

Fooli wrote:
Fun innit. Again :)

f
yep - & addictive!

glad to see I'm making some kind of vague sense to someone...

I like your "bulk discount" idea - but I have no clue as to how easy that would be to code. leave that to the techies

as for bigger ships being slower - not neccesarily - consider it a transit vs freight train kinda thing (then again, some of the transit drivers i know....)
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Post by Fooli »

Heheh, yeh. I suppose it might get way too complex if we did that stuff. Either make the balance work via ship size, or speed, or distance it can travel.. but mebbe not both. I dunno, I just do words, not numbers. I'll leave all that to mit, who pretends to understand it :)

f
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Post by Mit »

no, i aint got a clue either :)

Yeh, it still needs lots of balancing.. finding out exactly how it needs to be changed can only be done by having ppl flying about and trying it and getting the feedback, so all this sorta conversation is very useful :]. As i've mentioned before, there has to be periods of stability in the settings with changes made at intervals.. continually re-balancing the econ setup jus makes it impossible to find out exactly what does need changing and ya end up running around in circles.

The point about you being able to make the same profits out of cheap items is indeed not good.. you are supposed to be able to make more per-tonne profit on more expensive items (its how elite worked). I increased the potential profits on the smaller items during the last set of 'tweaks' because so many ppl were saying it was too hard to get started... i guess i was a lil over-zealous in that (or the potential of the more expensive items need increasing too).

Similarly, you are supposed to be able to make more profits by taking goods to other more remote star systems, rather than just doin inter-planetary trades.
Partly this relies on adding some new unique planet types with high demand rates, that only exist in remote systems.. I'll add these (which will include demands for plastics, slaves, narcotics etc) in the next round of settings changes.
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Post by Sonro »

just had email from Chezzie @ work- ses he's looking forward to all this drug traficking and slave trading.

I really worry 'bout him sometimes....
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Post by Sonro »

Mit wrote: The point about you being able to make the same profits out of cheap items is indeed not good.. you are supposed to be able to make more per-tonne profit on more expensive items (its how elite worked). I increased the potential profits on the smaller items during the last set of 'tweaks' because so many ppl were saying it was too hard to get started... i guess i was a lil over-zealous in that (or the potential of the more expensive items need increasing too).
never played Elite, so wouldnt know about that, but...

Per journey - larger cargo of more expensive items is(usually) much more profitable, but given the shorter distances concerned, no real surprise that Fooli can do maybe 2 trips to my 1 and just about equal profits in same time. if we were trading same route, he'd be scuppered! That said, there are occasional routes where organics can be more profitable than computers, which does seem a bit mad.
Mit wrote: Similarly, you are supposed to be able to make more profits by taking goods to other more remote star systems, rather than just doin inter-planetary trades.
Partly this relies on adding some new unique planet types with high demand rates, that only exist in remote systems.. I'll add these (which will include demands for plastics, slaves, narcotics etc) in the next round of settings changes.
that'd be good - at the moment, l24 stardrive comes in handy when trading to M209, or making 2 jumps to M362, so there is a bit of long distance trading happening already, but the profits fluctuate too wildly to make this a viable long-term route. Opening up different cargo types & more remote stations, (maybe even making ATWA reachable again - I dunno, shift a couple of stars, alter the gravity of the whole space time contiumuum thingy - no prob to a game god:wink:) would improve long distance opportunities no end
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Post by Sonro »

YAY - no work for a whole 2 weeks! where's ma guinness...

You been tweakin' prices mit? :D

Long dist routes(2x l24 jumps) seem to have stabilised with a more reasonable & realistic fluctuation in prices(and relative good increase in profit for the effort), from that perspective, much better. Haven't had much of a chance to check out the smaller stuff - maybe get around to that later!

on a slightly different note, on one of the now deleted forums, mit mentioned a reset (I think it was alphawolfe askin & a vague timescale was mentioned, along with the usual coders comments of "keep playing anyway cos it helps figure out the glitches".) a couple of traders I know have kinda stopped or slowed down for now, there's little sense from a purely player perspective.

can you remove some of the vagueness and remind us please - are we talking days, weeks or months here? How about some kind of incentive to keep traders in the game meantime , maybe top of the list gets a prize - names a planet or gets a custom ship skin or whatever, just so people dont lose interest or give up at the thought of a reset? (Could even become a regular "comeptition" - esp when trading gets more dangerous - longest surviving trader gets a pension maybe...) The top 3 on the rich list have been swapping positions lots as they've upgraded and found different routes, & given the relative speeds/cargo capacities of their ships, there's really not that much in it. Prob'ly even plenty of time for others to get in on the action and make a name for themselves in interstellar trading :D
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Post by Mit »

YAY - no work for a whole 2 weeks! where's ma guinness...
Just there.. next to your right hand.
You been tweakin' prices mit?

not me :) The econ does tend to take a lil while to settle down after everytime i fiddle with it.. Think the more reliable trade routes are just a consequence of the supply/demand/production stuff goin thru a few more of its natural cycles.
can you remove some of the vagueness and remind us please - are we talking days, weeks or months here?
I agree its a bit of rubbish state to be in atm :].
As fooli has mentioned a date for doin some marketin, lets go with 'Early December' for a reset. There.

The only question is what happens till then? I will give some sort of 'prize' for the ppl at the top in 'Early December'.. tho i dont think its a particularly encouraging or fair competition for most ppl, as things stand at the moment, so the prize would have to be something fairly 'trivial'. (Its a very relative term :] )
Alternatiiiiively... if you (the ppl reading and having an opinion on this) prefer, we could have a reset now and run a fixed competition from now until 'Early December'. Player(s) with the most gal cash at the end of the run get a nice, fairly significant, prize. (A hosted world, free console game.. etc etc.. something along those lines.. )

So.. any opinions?
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Post by Sonro »

It doesn't strike me as something that makes a huge amount of difference - now or in 2 months. just is useful to have an idea whats happening! Might renew interest in trading to have a reset early, esp. if a reasonable prize is involved, but given that a reset is (potentially) planned around december anyway, there's a high chance that ppl just wont bother before Christmas.

Altho a reset & 6-week-or-so mini-comp would be good, I know Bong was running around getting the credits to upgrade, and it'd be a bit of a pain in the ass for a "random" reset when he's just bought his flashy new ship. Then again, he's a grown-up type and can speak for himself...

Signififcant prize would be nice - but not sure how good an idea it is to offer a hosted world (presuming here that there would still be a fair amount of work for the owner regardles of who was hosting). I get the impression from other threads that people have liked the idea but not the reality of running a world, and things tend to die off pretty quickly. I know one or 2 have valid reasons (Jem & Junk), but as for others (& I'm merely making assumptions based on comments in other threads here, not pointing fingers), it seems more like lost interest.

just a few random thoughts after several glasses of wine...
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Post by morbydvisns »

dont matter to me not like i havnt survived thru a reset (blanket or self-induced) in the past =)


id like to see pirating implimented before a universal wipe of space info....... something new to play with while we all struggle thru the few and small profitable routes that are there. Would definitly up the stakes on making that next trade route run =).
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Post by Chezzie »

Think I agree with morbydvisns & Sonro here. OK to the reset but only with changes in place. The piracy, more of the reachable planets open to trade, bigger profits for the expensive items, etc.
Gonna miss my Cobra though! *sniff*

Other ideas:
How about a trade in price when you upgrade ships?

What about some planets with rings that can be "mined" for raw ore then sold to be processed into Uridium at other stations?

High profit trade between distant systems involving several star jumps?

Random transport jobs, take a package &/or passengers to a particular planet for a fixed fee?

(If it's not TOO much of a head ache, why not re-shuffle the planets with the reset so we need to explore again?)
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Post by Sonro »

The arrival of piracy will certainly liven things up a bit more. Additional ideas of mining ore etc, will certainly make it easier for the non-traders to get a leg up the ladder initially, but the profit would need to be relatively small - otherwise no trading will be done other than mining!
(didn't that happen in elite? never played but heard a fair bit about it recently)

think you've got your answer Mit - with no other posts except the top 3 traders, it looks like no one else gives a damn.
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