everyones all shiny and happy in this universe and theyre all holding hands. always talking about EMs and how they cant kill you cause they dont want a bounty.
BUT DEEP DOWN THEY WANNA KILL YOU!!
dont be fooled, these peace lovers wanna shoot at a moving target as much as the next guy.
I guarentee that everyones first reaction when they first start playing this game is the same:
"cool im in a space ship.... do i have lasers!?"
listen to that instict to kill, or else this universe will become boring, AND PPL WILL STOP PLAYING.
for instance, the video game called 'contra'
it was an old classic video game. a sidescroller from the nintendo era.
why did people play that game? to shoot at stuff. no one would have played that game if you just walked through the levels withoutever encountering danger.
now its true this game is more than just a space shooter, theres econ and buildings and stuff. but IT IS A SPACE SHOOTER, too.
so please vote, do you want space to be a scary place full of enemies and ppl who shoot at you, or do you want to have freedom to fly around without danger?
VOTE! do you want a friendly space or an unfriendly space?
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lucifer1101
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well if you didnt risk losing everything when u die. it would be much easier to play that side of the game?? Thats why i try to help the newer players. because if they die they lose everything and thier opinion changes about the game, in an instant!!
P.S. The game is not well balanced but has alot of potential.
P.S. The game is not well balanced but has alot of potential.
Yes that is true Zaroba, but if you look at other games, they have AI, quests and monsters to kill. In the Universal we don't.Zaroba = space woulden't die without combat. there'd still be trading. and if you notice on most games, none PvP servers are usually much more popular then the PvP servers.
plus, as lu said. fighting is much more fun if theres nothing to loose.
Friendly space + Unfriendly space = Neutral Space. I think that keeping space neutraln will be best for the game and for its players, not friendly or unfriendly, just neutral so that it can balance it self. Thats why we have weapons in space for pirates and guild wars and other kind of fights , and a trading system for trading. Everything stays neutral and ads more content to the game. Friendly space will just be boring, unfriendly space wil be too boring too, so with a mix of the two wich is what you get now is how you get a great game like TU 
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bluenova123
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:37 pm
- Location: USA
catalpa7 wrote:A mix of friendly and hostile space. Chaos and uncertainty keep the game interesting. There should be more of it. Protect the new players and make the game progressively more difficult to hold the old players.
If we had more stuff to shoot at in space maybe we wouldnt shoot each other so much.
I still wanna fight NPC police ships.......
The game is not well balanced, I agree.
And I wouldn't call 20 people on-line as popular. And 20 people on a planet is NOT popular.
A balanced game would allow:
1. easy earn money at the beginning, without risk losing all.
2. progressively harder to earn more money due to economics, pirating, etc.. as you advance in the game.
3. easy possibility to fight each other at the beginning, without fear of losing EVERYTHING.
4. progressively harder to fight more and more advanced ships, but advanced ships can easily fight each other without losing everything.
This may sound contradictory, but it's not. The point is to create the right balance.
How can it possibly be done?
Let's examine point by point.
1. This is already solved by federal space.
2. Already solved.
3. Good solution is to assign bounty only if the killed ship actually loses something. This will provide ample possibilities for friendly fights, fight nights at will etc... People can start fighting right away, which will keep them interested to learn more of the game.
4. The above point solves this as well.
So, it's not much to change, actually. This single point (3) will change a lot!
And it's not hard to implement. Just an additional check to see if the killed ship lost something - then assign bounty or not.
What do you think?
And I wouldn't call 20 people on-line as popular. And 20 people on a planet is NOT popular.
A balanced game would allow:
1. easy earn money at the beginning, without risk losing all.
2. progressively harder to earn more money due to economics, pirating, etc.. as you advance in the game.
3. easy possibility to fight each other at the beginning, without fear of losing EVERYTHING.
4. progressively harder to fight more and more advanced ships, but advanced ships can easily fight each other without losing everything.
This may sound contradictory, but it's not. The point is to create the right balance.
How can it possibly be done?
Let's examine point by point.
1. This is already solved by federal space.
2. Already solved.
3. Good solution is to assign bounty only if the killed ship actually loses something. This will provide ample possibilities for friendly fights, fight nights at will etc... People can start fighting right away, which will keep them interested to learn more of the game.
4. The above point solves this as well.
So, it's not much to change, actually. This single point (3) will change a lot!
And it's not hard to implement. Just an additional check to see if the killed ship lost something - then assign bounty or not.
What do you think?
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lucifer1101
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hmmm some of it does seem a bit wacked eg when u start u have no shields and other players can use there lasers to kill you. and they may run to a planeyt or log off without knowing fully what they are dooing. this would be much simplified if there was an introdutory tutorial offered when they start space and a default eventscript to help them to get started on worlds. not just by going to the forums or looking through all the menus in the world stuff..
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flametard
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- Location: Join NR! faction name: 'NR new recruits' password: 'Truth'
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I agree, when youre a newb youre not only too slow and clumsy to escape danger, you dont have any sheilds! you simply have to rely on the kindness of strangers.
but if you started newbs off with sheilds instead of lasers, that might be equally as boring. cause theres no risk or nothing to kill.
assigning bounty only to people that pirate would probably cut the amount of ppl reseting themselves down by about 95%. cause about 95% of the space battles i see going on are just fights for fun, ego, the another kill, whatever. right now you only get ppl fighting for money, people should be fighting because fighting is fun. like playing chess in space. its the gameplay of the battle that makes another addictive factor to this game. looking for bounties and not finding any isnt that fun, or addictive, but the laser fights are.
and there would still be pirating and bounty hunting going on too.
ive seen alot of newbs get reset over stupid stuff like, ppl are lighting up their sheilds and they have to get off the computer at that moment. cant wait for red alert to go away. and these are newbs.
and LOTS of newbs rack up a huge bounty before they even realize the consequences.
so yeah i agree, the bounty only for pirates seems to be a giant problem solver.
but if you started newbs off with sheilds instead of lasers, that might be equally as boring. cause theres no risk or nothing to kill.
assigning bounty only to people that pirate would probably cut the amount of ppl reseting themselves down by about 95%. cause about 95% of the space battles i see going on are just fights for fun, ego, the another kill, whatever. right now you only get ppl fighting for money, people should be fighting because fighting is fun. like playing chess in space. its the gameplay of the battle that makes another addictive factor to this game. looking for bounties and not finding any isnt that fun, or addictive, but the laser fights are.
and there would still be pirating and bounty hunting going on too.
ive seen alot of newbs get reset over stupid stuff like, ppl are lighting up their sheilds and they have to get off the computer at that moment. cant wait for red alert to go away. and these are newbs.
and LOTS of newbs rack up a huge bounty before they even realize the consequences.
so yeah i agree, the bounty only for pirates seems to be a giant problem solver.
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lucifer1101
- Posts: 369
- Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:48 pm
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thats one point im going to have to agree with. the newer people to the game dont know the game dynamics well enough to survive for very long so lets vote to prposition 1:
newbs get more help at the start by npc ships and event command scripts so that they know what to do
place your votes here YES or no!
newbs get more help at the start by npc ships and event command scripts so that they know what to do
place your votes here YES or no!
Ive written the code for this change, but not sure atm whether its a totally wise thing to do.. If we don't give bounties for attacking ppl without cargo then theres a danger that there'll be too much random killing. (Tho, yeh, conversely, itll probably make things less complicated for newbs and generally more fun..)3. Good solution is to assign bounty only if the killed ship actually loses something. This will provide ample possibilities for friendly fights, fight nights at will etc... People can start fighting right away, which will keep them interested to learn more of the game.
Ill think further on whether to activate this for the next patch.. further opinions/thoughts
are welcome..
It's a big complicated mess and no mistake (ie any small change has a butterfly effect). Combat, bounty, legal status, trading, newbie friendliness and veteran boredom are all intermeshed in a way that makes my brain ache.
My thoughts on the whole thing (the actual reply to the "assign bounty only if ship loses something" is right at the end :] ...
1) The weapons ban in Federation space isn't strict enough. It must be a total ban if it's to work properly. New players should have a handful of systems where they're safe, and where it's possible to earn enough money to progress without venturing out into more dangerous territory. At the moment, piratical players can easily shoot newbies without fear of retaliation, because they've got shields; while newbie A can shoot newbie B without fear of retaliation, because newbie A is just feckin about and has nothing to lose, while newbie B is actually just trying to save up for the next ship or whatever.
2) Outside federation space. That said, we need to make it clear to everyone that while these three (or whatever) systems are safe, you're only going to earn real money etc if you venture further out. The economy would be tweaked to reflect that, and balanced so that for a few hours gameplay a new player would have enough basic equipment to survive (at least for a short while) if they get into a fight in the more dangerous zones.
3) Combat itself is terribly unbalanced. I haven't played with the new weapons much, but I'm not talking about that so much as the whole way it works:
a) It's impossible to run away from a fight you don't want to be in. Unless you happen to be near a station or an active planet, you're just gonna get shot. I think there are several things to be done/thought about here:
i) red alert top speeds should not be constant across all ships. I think it should be a percentage of top speed, modified by current damage levels etc.
ii) ship speeds and accelerations seem a bit backwards to me in general. If I'm in a tiny little x-fighter, I should have massive acceleration but a low top speed compared with a huge freighter stuffed full of engines. Basically, ship stats ought to reflect "mass" more effectively. Big ship = higher top speed, lower acceleration, more room for shields and armour, etc. There's some of this today but the accel/speed thing I think would be interesting to change.
iii) related to this: I should be able to ignore red alert and run away if I want to. If I'm in a huge freighter, I oughta be able to out-run the tiny little fighters eventually, just because I've got a significantly higher top speed (but lower acceleration). There could be weapons to prevent this (EM is the obvious example I spose) working like anti-warp: disable the engines, lay into the target. If it becomes a straight chase, the attacker's goal is to kill the ship before it moves out of range.
iv) large ships probably need significantly more armour/shield capacity than they have at the moment.
v) also related to this (another approach, I guess) would be giving players the ability to manage power between shields, engines and weapons. Again, so you at least have the option of trying to run away. If you're headed for a station that's being camped by a pirate or two, you only have two real options at the moment: quit the game and try again later, or just get shot. That's a bit dull. If you could maximise shields maybe you could try for the station. Or maximise engines and try for the planet over there, etc.
b) camping in general is a pain in the ass. There's a whole starsystem to manoeveur in and most activity takes place within spitting distance of the infimp entry points, the stations and the planets. Understandable to some extent, as these are points of focus/interest, but... I suspect it mostly happens because pirates just sit over the station exit waiting for someone to wander by.
i) To this end: I'd say anyone with a bounty ought to be attacked within a certain distance of a station (like planetary defences in netrek)
ii) or, that a certain radius around a station is a weapons-free zone. Maybe even the entire sphere around planets/stations, so pirates have to patrol much more space and even players without tough ships have different options for safe passage. This was how Elite worked, I think: most pirates sat on the direct path from the jump entry point to the station, so you could often avoid them by taking a more circuitous path to the station.
4) Bounty/legal status. Just some general ideas...
a) have to fix the issue of "I got a bounty just cos I was defending myself" and occasionally "just because my finger slipped onto tab" (which I've heard a few times, and done myself more than once without knowing I'd hit someone) It's daft :)
b) implement legal status on a starsystem basis. Players with criminal records can't dock at stations in "law abiding" systems.
c) Implement black market goods. Stolen cargo is only worth 5% (or something) of its normal market value.
d) enable people to pay their bounty (a fine) for minor offenses, Elite-style?
e) as for the "assign bounty only if the killed ship loses something" idea... well, there's too much random killing already, so that's not gonna change anything, I'd say. If it's important to cater for people who just want to shoot stuff, why not... build a stargate in the starting system that takes people to a special, orphaned system (ie one you can't get in or out of any other way) in which they can test their combat skills etc with impunity?
f
My thoughts on the whole thing (the actual reply to the "assign bounty only if ship loses something" is right at the end :] ...
1) The weapons ban in Federation space isn't strict enough. It must be a total ban if it's to work properly. New players should have a handful of systems where they're safe, and where it's possible to earn enough money to progress without venturing out into more dangerous territory. At the moment, piratical players can easily shoot newbies without fear of retaliation, because they've got shields; while newbie A can shoot newbie B without fear of retaliation, because newbie A is just feckin about and has nothing to lose, while newbie B is actually just trying to save up for the next ship or whatever.
2) Outside federation space. That said, we need to make it clear to everyone that while these three (or whatever) systems are safe, you're only going to earn real money etc if you venture further out. The economy would be tweaked to reflect that, and balanced so that for a few hours gameplay a new player would have enough basic equipment to survive (at least for a short while) if they get into a fight in the more dangerous zones.
3) Combat itself is terribly unbalanced. I haven't played with the new weapons much, but I'm not talking about that so much as the whole way it works:
a) It's impossible to run away from a fight you don't want to be in. Unless you happen to be near a station or an active planet, you're just gonna get shot. I think there are several things to be done/thought about here:
i) red alert top speeds should not be constant across all ships. I think it should be a percentage of top speed, modified by current damage levels etc.
ii) ship speeds and accelerations seem a bit backwards to me in general. If I'm in a tiny little x-fighter, I should have massive acceleration but a low top speed compared with a huge freighter stuffed full of engines. Basically, ship stats ought to reflect "mass" more effectively. Big ship = higher top speed, lower acceleration, more room for shields and armour, etc. There's some of this today but the accel/speed thing I think would be interesting to change.
iii) related to this: I should be able to ignore red alert and run away if I want to. If I'm in a huge freighter, I oughta be able to out-run the tiny little fighters eventually, just because I've got a significantly higher top speed (but lower acceleration). There could be weapons to prevent this (EM is the obvious example I spose) working like anti-warp: disable the engines, lay into the target. If it becomes a straight chase, the attacker's goal is to kill the ship before it moves out of range.
iv) large ships probably need significantly more armour/shield capacity than they have at the moment.
v) also related to this (another approach, I guess) would be giving players the ability to manage power between shields, engines and weapons. Again, so you at least have the option of trying to run away. If you're headed for a station that's being camped by a pirate or two, you only have two real options at the moment: quit the game and try again later, or just get shot. That's a bit dull. If you could maximise shields maybe you could try for the station. Or maximise engines and try for the planet over there, etc.
b) camping in general is a pain in the ass. There's a whole starsystem to manoeveur in and most activity takes place within spitting distance of the infimp entry points, the stations and the planets. Understandable to some extent, as these are points of focus/interest, but... I suspect it mostly happens because pirates just sit over the station exit waiting for someone to wander by.
i) To this end: I'd say anyone with a bounty ought to be attacked within a certain distance of a station (like planetary defences in netrek)
ii) or, that a certain radius around a station is a weapons-free zone. Maybe even the entire sphere around planets/stations, so pirates have to patrol much more space and even players without tough ships have different options for safe passage. This was how Elite worked, I think: most pirates sat on the direct path from the jump entry point to the station, so you could often avoid them by taking a more circuitous path to the station.
4) Bounty/legal status. Just some general ideas...
a) have to fix the issue of "I got a bounty just cos I was defending myself" and occasionally "just because my finger slipped onto tab" (which I've heard a few times, and done myself more than once without knowing I'd hit someone) It's daft :)
b) implement legal status on a starsystem basis. Players with criminal records can't dock at stations in "law abiding" systems.
c) Implement black market goods. Stolen cargo is only worth 5% (or something) of its normal market value.
d) enable people to pay their bounty (a fine) for minor offenses, Elite-style?
e) as for the "assign bounty only if the killed ship loses something" idea... well, there's too much random killing already, so that's not gonna change anything, I'd say. If it's important to cater for people who just want to shoot stuff, why not... build a stargate in the starting system that takes people to a special, orphaned system (ie one you can't get in or out of any other way) in which they can test their combat skills etc with impunity?
f
Last edited by Fooli on Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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lucifer1101
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flametard
- Posts: 1245
- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:05 am
- Location: Join NR! faction name: 'NR new recruits' password: 'Truth'
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i liked fooli's ideas:
-about ship mass affecting its acceleration and top speed.
- the idea of managing power between sheilds, thusters and weapons.
-red alert speed varies from ship to ship.
-paying off your bounty (costs more than your bounty is worth, but gets you a 'clean' status again)
one idea i didnt really like was 5% on stolen goods
but maybe thats cause i like to play the role of a bad guy. tee hee
the orphan system to test fighting skills is a good idea. deaths, kills, and bounties are not registered in that system. its a big galaxy, so why not? but as a cure all for this issue, i dont think it is. too organized for a bad guys taste. a bad guy WANTS consequenses.
bad guys are gonna be bad guys, but theyre really not so bad, thyre fun. so lets not reset them eccesivly. lets come up with other ideas to make them feel more like criminals if they just wanna kill ppl like bad guys will do.
*foolli mention being banned from certain stations, thumbs up
*you lose your membership to the police guild (if you are a member)
*if you kill a person without cargo or bounty, you get a bounty thats a small percentage of your money. that way newbs wont be reset just for killing, and higher level plyers lose a bit more, but not too much that theyre gonna get reset either.. if a high level kills a newb, they should still receive a high bounty, cargo or not.
ive spent about an hour thinking and thats all i can come up with, but i think the combined 3 could be enough to keep people wanting to keep a clean record
or you can also play the role of a bad guy without having to fear losing everything.
and might i suggest something that Could entice peolpe down the wrong path?
in the galactic top 10s have a "top kills" section
-about ship mass affecting its acceleration and top speed.
- the idea of managing power between sheilds, thusters and weapons.
-red alert speed varies from ship to ship.
-paying off your bounty (costs more than your bounty is worth, but gets you a 'clean' status again)
one idea i didnt really like was 5% on stolen goods
but maybe thats cause i like to play the role of a bad guy. tee hee
the orphan system to test fighting skills is a good idea. deaths, kills, and bounties are not registered in that system. its a big galaxy, so why not? but as a cure all for this issue, i dont think it is. too organized for a bad guys taste. a bad guy WANTS consequenses.
bad guys are gonna be bad guys, but theyre really not so bad, thyre fun. so lets not reset them eccesivly. lets come up with other ideas to make them feel more like criminals if they just wanna kill ppl like bad guys will do.
*foolli mention being banned from certain stations, thumbs up
*you lose your membership to the police guild (if you are a member)
*if you kill a person without cargo or bounty, you get a bounty thats a small percentage of your money. that way newbs wont be reset just for killing, and higher level plyers lose a bit more, but not too much that theyre gonna get reset either.. if a high level kills a newb, they should still receive a high bounty, cargo or not.
ive spent about an hour thinking and thats all i can come up with, but i think the combined 3 could be enough to keep people wanting to keep a clean record
or you can also play the role of a bad guy without having to fear losing everything.
and might i suggest something that Could entice peolpe down the wrong path?
in the galactic top 10s have a "top kills" section
Heh. There's nothing wrong with playing the game as a bad guy (or girl): it's perfectly valid.
I just think the balance is a bit too skewed in their favour; that combat would be much more enjoyable, not with loads of new weapons etc, but with some changes in the "back end", as it were; and - this is the big thing - that "bad guy" behaviour is very damaging to the continued growth of the community. Not because "bad guys" are doing anything wrong by shooting people, but because we don't have systems in place to let new players survive long enough to fight back or learn how to "play safe" for their first few hours. It's like joining a game of counterstrike, or something, and never getting past the first bunker without some expert sniper taking your head off. If that happens more than a couple of times, you just uninstall it. Well I would anyway :]
f
I just think the balance is a bit too skewed in their favour; that combat would be much more enjoyable, not with loads of new weapons etc, but with some changes in the "back end", as it were; and - this is the big thing - that "bad guy" behaviour is very damaging to the continued growth of the community. Not because "bad guys" are doing anything wrong by shooting people, but because we don't have systems in place to let new players survive long enough to fight back or learn how to "play safe" for their first few hours. It's like joining a game of counterstrike, or something, and never getting past the first bunker without some expert sniper taking your head off. If that happens more than a couple of times, you just uninstall it. Well I would anyway :]
f
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Gavinbaisk
- Posts: 534
- Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:20 pm
Maybe when paying off your bounty, you don't get a change in criminal status, but there is no longer a bounty on you. If you want to de-grade your criminal status, you have to say, not kill any ship for 2 weeks and your level degrades one (hoodlum to minor criminal etc.). There should also be some more targets other than players too, simple bots would be enough where they simply detect a criminal, attack, turn and change speed in the aim of getting a target within the crosshairs so that it could be fired upon. Similar method to how the autopilot works but with combat features. Police and Pirate ships could then be added to spawn randomly, enabling systems to be more exciting and the number of police ships you destroy increase your bounty and criminal ranking while say you join in a fight with a police ship against a pirate ship, you can have a degraded criminal level and be safe with that NPC you helped for say, until you leave the system. If you still have a criminal status after that and re-enter the system, that same unit or another one is spawned again, would continue to hunt you.